Totally OT Cranes

[Mary Fisher]

True. Like Spellcheckers.

Mary

[Owain]

Shakespeare couldn't.

Owain

[Lawrence Milbourn]

In an essay a student once wrote for me Einstein was spelt six different ways on one page. Now that takes pure genius!

Lawrence

[Mary Fisher]

What mark did you award?

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

He could. In his day there was no standard spelling.

Mary

[John Rumm]

IIRC he *was* dyslexic...

[Dave]

If he couldn't, are you sure that you can ;-)

Dave

[T i m]

Feeling for Rick re not being a good speller (and not having a spell checker on FreeAgent) I'll say something (to Mary) that might make some realise how unkind (however innocent) having a pop when we spell 'difficult' words incorrectly (simple incorrect words are often just typos)? (And I note Mike said sorry etc)

I did ask Mary if there were any free spell checkers that I could easily use with Free Agent and you forgot to tell me (ha ha) .... ?

Now an answer to your memory loss could be using an aid memoir (like us having to use a spell checker)? Do we have a go when you forget something .. do we think you are doing it on purpose .. no ?

I am 48 years old and *still* spell some (often the same) words incorectly .. but as long as I do my best to use capitals and a bit of formatting / punctuation and everyone can understand the spirit of the message does it *really* matter?

I would love to be able to spell everything correctly (even if only to get the pedants off my back) but I just can't (English being so messed up .. "I before E except after C" .. yeah right ..), even when I use the spell checkers that come in some apps, I can't even get the spell checker to understand what I'm trying to write (and have to use another word instead)!

*I'm* not having a pop at anyone (especially Mary even though she's pulled me up re spellings several times) just a plea to those who find spelling 'easy' do the bigger thing and just read our posts for what they mean, not how they are spelled (spelt?) ..... ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. When I was a lad I helped build a smal 'tower crane' .. they just built it using a mobile crane and didn't bother with the self errecting mech (it only needed to be a certian (sp?) height. I had the fun job of:

1) Wiring it up (all the paperwork was in French)

2) Setting the overload trip up at the top .. as they bounced a 1 tonne weight hanging off the jib ... !

[Mary Fisher]

I just don't know :-)

Some do, very often :-)

How do I know the intention of others? Unlike many people, who seem to think that they know *my* intentions, I don't have such a skill :-)

If a person - anyone - wants to communicate effectively I think it does matter. If the flow of the message is interrupted by a solecism of any kind then it does matter. It could be argued that a writer who hasn't the courtesy to bother to check spelling is insulting the reader.

I liken this to how people behave in other parts of their lives. For instance, do you bother washing? Does it matter if you smell? Many women wouldn't go out without applying make-up, yet when they open their beautifully painted mouths the inarticulate noises which emanate therefrom belie the care they've given to the rest of what they present to the world.

English is perhaps the richest language in the world, it is expressive and there is usually a variety of words which can be used for the same idea, nobody has to be stuck. Other languages tend to be more rigid, you could say that they are 'easier', our nuances do make English more versatile.

If you have a piece of timber which you want to convert into a shelf but you can't be bothered to use the right tools or measure properly are you satisfied with second best? Is the piece of wood messed up or are you not working it appropriately?

That's a great benefit of English. OE's spellchecker is very good and you can also make it do what you want.

You could work at it - if you think it matters enough. If you can't be bothered it doesn't matter. You just won't have the same impact as if you do bother. Rules of language can be likened to other rules, social or legal. There are rules about crossing the road. Does it matter if you can't be bothered looking to see if something's going to hit you?

If you had a pop at me it wouldn't make any difference to me, my integrity is intact, don't worry about it. But it seems that you want others to do the work which you can't be bothered to do in the first place. The many have to compensate for the few. Is that fair?

Hmm.

I'm not sure about spelling being 'easy' for anyone. It has to be worked at just as other things, which are worthwhile, have to be worked at.

By the way, I didn't correct the poster's spelling of Einstein.

:-)

Mary

[Mike Barnes]

Please understand that I wasn't "having a pop" at Rick. If I'd criticised him in any way, that would be different, but I didn't. I used his posting as a vehicle for humour. I think that's acceptable, bearing in mind that *anything* that one person regards as humorous could be regarded as offensive by someone else. Humour's like that.

I have no idea whether Rick is dyslexic or not. I assumed that his mistake was a typo, and I have seen nothing that makes me think otherwise. There are all sorts of reasons, which I have no wish to know about, why he might find a spelling joke offensive at this time.

If we were inhibited from taking the humorous opportunities presented by typos, Usenet would be a much poorer place.

[Fitz]

It's all part of the anti-intellectual attitude that pervades this country. It drives me mad. People seem to be actually scared that they wont look 'cool' (or whatever the current equivalent is - phat or bad or rad or something similar), if they are seen to think too much.

It's like associating cause and effect is a weakness. Expressing yourself clearly makes you a 'boffin' (or whatever the current equivalent is).

My personal list of awful thigns people say is topped by 'sort of', 'kind of' and 'like' used to indicate a non-commital nature. e.g. It's sort of like kind of a good idea if you sort of brush your teeth because like it's kind of like cleaning them you know and it's kind of like a good thing. (subtext - please don't hate me for wanting to do something sensible).

Having said all that I do think that life is too short to proof read usenet.

[Mary Fisher]

I didn't think you were :-)

Indeed.

Mary

[John Rumm]

Frankly Mary, I that that is rather insulting. What do you suppose we (dyslexics) have been doing for the bulk of our lives?

Would you say to a one legged man, "learn to walk properly"? Yes there are steps () that can be taken to improve the situation, but you will also have to accept that is may be something they will never do as well as you.

I wish it was simply a case of "bothering".

Yes, I agree you will have more impact on some readers if you can spell faultlessly, although poor grammar is perhaps more noticeable than poor spelling.

One of the fundamental difficulties with a dyslexic's brain wiring is an inability to recognise and apply the rules. This in many cases results in the dyslexic having to either learn each word as a special case (much as you would learn a telephone number), or fall back on the "logical" approach of spelling phonetically. Alas with the aforementioned richness of our language that will result in an far less than perfect result.

I am surprised that someone of your abilities should have so much difficulty coping with the occasional typo or incorrect spelling. Especially when you are reading a coherent and well constructed sentence.

[T i m]

Oh to live in utopia Mary .. ? It will be "no one over 6' or bald" soon (that's me out on both counts!) ;-)

Yes.

Does it matter if you smell?

'Matter' is a function of where you are and what you are doing .. in the real world what do you expect a workman digging a hole in the ground in the 80 deg sun to do? Stop every 5 mins for a wash? So, it might 'matter' if the observer is inflexible? As mentioned elsewhere, it's often not just a matter of trying harder .. is just how different folk 'see' stuff. What if they have a body odour 'problem' no matter how many times a day they wash / spray / roll .. would you tell them they stink?

Many women

And you would judge them so Mary? Could it be possible that these folk could actually be 'better' citizens than some you would find more 'acceptable' because of how they sound?

Try telling someone learing English that though? My 15 year old daughter was recently helping her 15 year old boyfriend (gently and because he asked) about "their" and "there" etc. After she explained

*why* there were differences and what they meant he was much happier (he 'understood'). Why hadn't anyone else (school) managed to deal with this 'hole' in his understanding before now?

Other languages tend to be more rigid, you could

Possibly, but that wasn't the 'issue'.

Or put another way, what if you are actually doing the best you can (reasonably) do with the tools you are given? We have one life to get though and most of us choose to do a variety of things to the best of our ability. I'm not saying we should close our eyes to things but sometimes you walk into stuff even with your eyes fully open?

Possibly (don't use OE) .. and I do use spell checkers where they are offered .. Free Agent hasn't one so I can't use it. I have tried some 'external' ones that you can call up into any app but none have worked well enough (I was going to say "have been sucessfull" but I knew there was no chance of getting that right!) ;-)

With *some* possibly. But if I think someone has something valid / informed / interesting to offer I try to see though any minor issues (like difficult spelling or 'blind spots' (like a mate that always types teh for 'the' ..) and appreciate the good stuff?

Rules of language can be likened to other rules, social or legal.

I can't see a valid comparison (re spelling) Mary? ;-(

That's making a huge assumption though isn't it Mary? You have no idea how much time I may put into typing, editing and proof reading something I send? You have to understand that some of us can read and re-read some incorrect spelling and not see anything wrong?

The many have to

If this was uk.english.perfect then possibly no, but it isn't .. it's a newsgroup for folk to exchange information regarding DIY (or bees or whatever) ;-)

But as you know all too well everthing has prioraties (I tried but have no idea if I'm even close). I suggest someone on this list with water pouring down the stairs would rather have an informative reply written all in lower case, with no punctuation and poor spelling than no answer at all?

Did I suggest you did? Maybe I missunderstood the spirit of your comment ..

"Mike: > No offence meant, and I apologise if any was taken. You must admit it was a gift...

Mary: True. Like Spellcheckers."

For my crude inderstanding of this flexible language of ours I took that to suggest that 'posters' could use a spellchecker because they were 'there' or freely available (was I close)? ;-)

Bottom line, I don't like hearing folk saying 'we was' or 'anythink' but wouldn't assume to correct them .. (unless we were in an English class and I was the teacher of course) ;-) [1]

All the best .. (really)

T i m

[1] Or my daughter says it .. and at 15 she's a better speller than me (I?) .. possibly because she 'likes' English as a subject and had read more books when she was 5 than I have to date.

I have read this though the best I can but have to go out now to help a mate with a PC problem (where thank's to GUi's poor spellers aren't penalised) ;-)

[Mary Fisher]

I didn't mention dyslexics. I think you're being over-sensitive. I was replying to Tim, who hasn't claimed to be dyslexic.

See above.

That's your opinion..

er- to WHAT sentence are you referring?

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

Are you suggesting that someone who can't be bothered to spell is digging a hole at 80 degrees?

What I'm saying is that they care about how they look but not about how they communicate. Fine feathers and all that ...

Are you learning English?

I've no idea. I wasn't responsible for his education.

You made it an issue by talking about English being 'messed up'.

I don't understand the correlation.

Try it.

I do - but it interferes with the communication of the message and it's not necessary.

If you can't see that I haven't communicated well enough. I rest my case.

er - that last sentence isn't a question ...

No it isn't fair. The many in Usenet are those who don't bother about communicating well, in my experience.>

And I'm still here, still wanting to learn and, occasionally, offer the benefit of my experience. I didn't start this sub-thread.

That's an extreme example, I've never seen that - that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. I really would have expected someone in that position to find some other way of obtaining advice than going to his computer. Or even her computer.

Perhaps you did.

er... ?

I've no idea what you mean. I really did believe that spellcheckers were part of most verbal applications

Who did I correct? And if I were an English teacher would you accept what I said?

Mary

[Dave]

I'm with you, here :-)

My wife has the ability to spell 99 percent of words, but she is absolute crap at maths. She runs a scout group and guess who has to balance the books at the end of the year?

Going back to spelling, I am just hopeless and depend, largely, on spell checkers. Over the years, they have helped me to spell a hell of a lot better than I used to do, but alas, I still make mistakes in letters I write.

I think my problem stemmed from being born with asthma and spending just as much time at home ill, as I did at school learning.

As far as I know, I am not the least bit dyslexic, but as an aside, I can't, for the life of me remember a name for over 5 seconds. Give me a number and it is in my memory for ever. Names fall out of every orifice I have ;-) Numbers just go down to my belly and make it just that bit fatter :-) Good luck with the dyslexia

dave

[T i m]

No, because the concept that 100% of the population could get 100% of their spellings correct is untenable (no matter how hard they try or you teach). ;-)

And (as was mentioned elsewhere in this thread) nice / important (to some) the ideal might be, who want's to spellcheck the usenet ..... ?

All the best ..

M i t

[John Rumm]

No true, but the spelling difficulties he described do corrolate well with those experianced by dyslexics, and it was continuing a thread that did mention the issue.

Over sensitive? perhaps ;-)

(One of the most harrowing experiences of school life that I remember, is that of being confronted with an attitude that if you can't write down everything, then you should be treated as if you don't know and/or you are not trying hard enough).

Well given that I said "some readers", and I know it to be true for me and several others, it must be unarguably correct. I accept that it is not true for all however.

Personally I find poor grammar less easy to read. Poor spelling however I am almost completely oblivious to, given that most misspellings look just fine to me!

Any really. If the point is well made, and grammatically correct then the meaning is usually clear even if there is the occasional typo or spelling error.

[Bob Eager]

And even spellcheckers don't pick up misuse of apostrophes! :-)