Time to forget Ebay?

[Fergus O'Rourke]

I think that you'll find that it does. IIRC, there has to be a notice about it on every branch premises.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 09:45:56 on Fri, 28 Dec

2007, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

What is the risk you are trying to avert? That Paypal makes an unauthorised withdrawal from a credit card, and that the CC company refuses to chargeback the transaction? Both seem very unlikely.

It's just like buying at a car boot sale. Why would you expect anything different buying in cash from a stranger?

And there's a reason for that!

As for "transactions gone bad" [1], the only one I had was for one of these new categories (ie Software). It did end up being a failure of eBay's processes because the item was not as described (but not extremely so, it wasn't a counterfeit for example) and yet as a result of I assume someone else complaining, the trader was evicted from eBay at which point it's impossible to view the item listing any more, so off-eBay dispute resolution is tricky [2]. That *is* an area I think they should improve upon.

[1] Other than things turning up late, damaged, or not as described [3], none of which is PayPal/eBay's fault, and for which the remedies will often lie in the physical rather than online world if the seller is intransigent. [2] Moral: Print off a hard copy of any listing that really matters to you. [3] One of the things I've learnt is that "untested" is often code for "we have tested it, and it definitely isn't working". But that's back to car boot sale politics again.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 10:09:13 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy Hall remarked:

We seem to be in agreement then :)

But some people don't seem to understand unspoken "rules". Like those traders who allow employees to use the company account from time to time to sell personal items. Can get a bit confusing, and could be a bit of a grey area. I wonder what would happen in a real-world shop in that situation?

[Lobster]

Agreed - I bought something for about 20 quid some weeks ago and paid by PayPal and the item never arrived. (Seller never responded to any emails from me - clearly crooked). Sure, you can invoke PayPal's wonderful protection policy, but that only works if the buyer has funds in his PayPal account, and clearly any fraudster with a bit of nows will withdraw as soon as anything is credited.

I can't do a credit-card chargeback as the transaction is below 100 quid, and the seller has incomplete address details on file with ebay so a Small Claim isn't possible.

Ebay simply aren't interested, and are still collecting selling fees from this character, so they're happy, while the bloke is still selling the same fairly unusual item on ebay (ie a one-off item relisted multiple times) with impunity.

David

[Roger Mills]

Were those the *actual* words used by Ebay? If so, they say the opposite of what they really mean, which is "by allowing *only* PayPal to be offered" rather than "by only allowing PayPal to be offered".

It's time they learned to express things in clear English!

[Rupert Moss-Eccardt]

Ring our friends at 'Parkside' and ask for the Economic Crime Unit. You might also find a call to Trading Standards worthwhile.

[Tim Ward]

There are plenty of horror stories on the web.

My bank has the following, which PayPal is reputed not to have, or at least does not absolutely clearly visibly have all of:

(1) A fax number to which I can fax a complaint and expect a probable response from a real human being within a few days.

(2) A phone number which I can ring and guarantee an instant response from a real human being, and who in my experience will understand the question and provide the requested action without problem at the first time of asking.

(3) A named manager who will own any problems with my accounts.

(4) A physical address to which I can conveniently travel and jump up and down until they fix whatever might be the issue.

(5) A requirement to behave in accordance with UK banking laws and regulation and codes of conduct.

(6) A clearly identified UK business which I can sue in the English courts under English law if needed.

They also have no documented policy of doing the following:

(7) Freezing my accounts at the whim of some fraudster I've never heard of.

(8) Moving money around between my bank and credit card accounts without my say-so.

That's the bank I use for my business accounts and some personal accounts. Another personal account with another bank is a postal account: that doesn't give me (3) (except that I have in the past had personal attention from the MD), and instead of a fax number I have a secure online messaging system, but essentially I get the same features.

[Tim Ward]

The court would have to decide whether the purchaser reasonably believed that it was a consumer transaction? And if so hold the company liable as if for a consumer transaction?

[Stuart B]

Are credit Card companies accepting that payment by Paypal using a CC is a a normal CC transaction ? I thought that they didn't accept this as the payment was firstly to Paypal and then to the seller .

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Well in this case ebay are the publisher and responsible for the ads they carry. I went through their disputes procedure but after a few standard responses from them it fizzled out. And of course the whole idea of the feedback system is you're not buying from an unknown stranger - as at say a car boot sale.

[Andy Hall]

Stretch it further if you like, but Ebay is not a "must have".

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 10:16:42 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Tim Ward remarked:

See below.

Data Protection law (assuming for a moment it's clear whose law) doesn't really have a concept for giving away personal data as a way for vigilantes to prevent potential future crimes. Even the police rarely ask for information until *after* a crime has been committed, as it's difficult to demonstrate need in the context of "prevention".

Is that a transcription of the reason they've given?

Have they admitted that the letter is genuine, and if you've told them the company name and company address are wrong have they accepted that and have they agreed to mark the account as Company Name "Unknown" and Address "Unknown"?

I think you should ask Companies House what grounds they recommend you report this, as it's not at all clear.

[TPMcCann]

Dispute resolution opaque ? Non-existent I'd say. Earlier this year I bought a camera on Ebay and paid with Paypal. Depite assurances that the camera was in perfect condition it was in fact in rag order. Seller refused to take it back and offered derisory discount. On Ebay/ Paypal advice I posted it back using their recommended postal method. Despite this when the seller didn't cough up Papal said they had insufficient proof of delivery of the returned item. End of story. Closed door. Worse than dealing with "We don't do refunds"-Ryanair who scammed me by charging double price for two tickets one time and that was their response. So I ended up paying for the camera and postage and the return postage and got sfa.

If anyone on this group thinks Ebay/Paypal gives a tupenny f**k about their customers thay are living in La La Land.

If anyone thinks they give a tupenny f**k about counterfeit goods they are living in La La Land. Despite having pointed out to them by an art expert that signed sketchs on sale were dated two years AFTER the death of the artist concerned they refused to pull the auction.

Do a Google on Ebay Sucks.

The only bright light is that apparently Amazon are now making in- roads into their market

Paul Mc Cann

[Andrew Gabriel]

No. They warned recently that payment to Paypal was to be treated as a cash advance to top up another cash account for protection purposes (although they don't seem to charge the extra cash percentage) and you might want to think carefully before giving paypal a continuous authority on your cards.

I think it was a bit vague before Paypal left UK legal jusitiction, but was made clearer subsequently.

[Dave Liquorice]

If only, eBay has a serious problem with the "sellor is always in the right".

I suggest you go off and read *all* the small print relating to PayPals various "buyer protection" programs. There are an awful lot of exclusions, get outs and weasel words that many transactions will fall foul of. Like the item has to be sent via an "trackable online proof of delivery" service. I'm reasonably certain that Royal Mails Recorded Delivery does not count as it is not an online *trackable* service.

A buyer is better off paying by credit card (maybe via PayPal) and getting the refund from them rather than pissing about with PayPal.

[Tim Ward]

Not word for word, but pretty much what they said.

By implication yes.

They have refused to tell me whether they are going to take any action and if so what as this would involve breaching the privacy of their customer, the fraudster. Other than I think they said they would contact the customer and ask them to check that they hadn't made an error in typing their company name and address.

It's maybe the case that telling lies of the form "I have something to do with this company" would be difficult to pin down as a crime. But I bet you can't imagine, any more than I can, any reason why someone might do this if they were not intending to use this false identity in the commission of some future crime.

However this sort of thing causes endless hassle, as one has to take pre-emptive action to avoid the fraudster stealing the company or the company's bank accounts or the company's domain or web site ... what have I left out of this list? who else should I have contacted about this?

[geraldthehamster]

I took Paypal when I first started selling on eBay. If you're selling small items, you lose a high percentage pf your sale price to Paypal, taking into account the flat fee as well as the percentage charge. Added to the straight eBay costs it all eats into your profit. I stopped taking Paypal, and have never had any problems with buyers' willingness to provide cheques.

I see an awful lot of auctions where the seller expressly won't take Paypal, for this very reason. Often it's couched in euphemistic terms, as eBay have a habit of removing listings containing text that they don't like.

There may well be a security benefit to using Paypal, but let's be under no illusion that eBay's motivation for doing this is any different from their motivation for doing anything else - to milk you for as much money as possible while giving you a warm glowy feeling about "community" and "membership". Nice work if you can get it.

Regards Richard

Regards Richard

[The Natural Philosopher]

I won't deal paypal only. End of story. If ebay makes it compulsory I won't use ebay.

Had too many problems with them.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 10:57:04 on Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Andy Hall remarked:

I really don't see what your point is. eBay is very high up my list of "very useful things I use the Internet for", and indeed many other people's. What's your problem with that?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Exactly.