Tile cement question?

[Arfa Daily]

I'm not pretending to be an expert - I've just tiled a few walls and on my second floor. But, whatever I'm doing, I always read up on, and follow the experts' and pros' best practice - not where the latter are just saving time or cutting corners, but definitely when they are avoiding call-backs and potential issues. One of the joys of DIY is being able to make sure the the job is done right. I'm happy to follow those with much more expertise on stuff like this, especially when the hassle and cost of it going wrong fars outweighs what little saving is on offer by using tub gear. Try ringing a BAL, Ardex, Mapei, etc tech help-line and see what they say re large format porcelain on plasterboard. The non-setting picture frame story is from pro tilers who have experienced it with problem installs (and not overnight, weeks later).

Well, I've been DIY tiling for more years than I care to remember. I have used just about every size of ceramic wall tile going, and have always used ready mixed tub based adhesives. I have, over the years also had cause to remove tiles previously fixed in this way, and have never seen your picture frame effect. In fact I usually have to smash any tiles off with a hammer and chisel. Up until now, my tile adhesive of choice has been B&Q Cerafix non slip, which I have found to be an excellent product.

I actually object to you suggesting that I am any kind of bodger who has "incorrectly used a product a few times and got away with it", and just plunges ahead without doing any kind of research. If you have "done a few walls" then I would suggest that I have probably done an awful lot more tiling in my life than you.

The outlet that I used to purchase my current large format tiles, is a small family firm, and the guy that runs my local branch is very knowledgable about the range of products that he stocks, which is why I am prepared to listen to him, and any advice that he has to give. He has a number of different adhesives in stock, including mix it yourself types, but the one he recommended for fixing these tiles was a heavy duty non slip tub based one. That was good enough for me. He's hardly going to recommend something that will allow the tiles he's sold me, to fall off the wall, is he ?

Arfa

[Bolted]

OK - always willing to learn. What is the make and product, you didn't answer that?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I've just had a look at the Ardex site and they sell a tub adhesive as suitable for porcelain tiles on pretty well any substrata. No mention of tile size. Which is strange if there is a limit - given how popular large tiles are these days.

Think your mate was pulling your plonker...

Just consider. Most tiles are non porous - porcelain especially so. But the plaster etc behind is porous, so the adhesive dries via that route. And dry it certainly does - I removed some tiles to fit an inset mirror about a week after fixing and it was rock hard.

[Arfa Daily]

The product is "Al Murad Heavy Duty Non-Slip Tile Adhesive" It is quoted on the tub as

" ... is formulated for fixing ceramic wall tiles to most interior wall surfaces including cement rendering, plaster, plasterboard, existing tiles, wood and wood composites without the need for battening or supports. Exceeds the requirements of BS5980 Type 2 Class B and BS EN 12004 D1T."

It goes on

"This product's excellent non-slip properties make it ideal for fixing most types // and sizes // (my emphasis) of ceramic wall tiles " .... usual stuff about waterproof grout, kitchens, showers, bathrooms etc .... "It is easy to apply and is specially formulated to allow time for adjustment after fixing. It is a thin bed adhesive for application up to a thickness of

3mm".

And therin, I would venture to suggest, is the trick, and the one that is missed by people who pile the stuff on in disorganised lumps, and then have trouble with it not drying.

That said, I have had areas where the plaster has come off the walls with the old tiles, and I have fixed new ones using seven-spot rather than combed bed, and have had no problems with the fix being totally solid.

Actually, looking at their website

are bigger than I though they were, never-the-less, I have found the person who runs my local branch to be very knowledgable and helpful. Certainly more so than the erks in all the 'big boys' stores. I got the impression that the premises were his, so maybe it's a franchise operation ? The deal that I got on my tiles and accessories was almost unbelievable, with the guy seeming to be able to 'deal' as the sale suited. I thought B&Q were actually pretty good on price, but they weren't even on the same planet, let alone in the same ballpark on price, with these large format tiles.

Arfa

[Stuart Noble]

In a good tile adhesive there shouldn't be a lot of moisture to dry out because the lightweight aggregates don't absorb water.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes, but if the plonker has PVA'ed the thing, or used inside out foil coated. Or is tiling over cement render or old tiles..yes..I HAVE seen ordinary adhesive take several days to get to strength.

I don't like cement adhesives for walls for reasons mentioned: My favorite is Evostik water resistant. Good compromise between price, ease of use and general grab and rapid dry

Its been rebranded it seems

places cite 24hours on a porous, 72hours on non porous surfaces for set time. That is about right. It does go off eventually, but boy it takes time..

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Tub adhesives are air drying though. Unlike cement based ones where it's a chemical reaction.

[Bolted]

It isn't a mate, it is from reading tech recommendations, and pro tilers discussing this stuff, and their discussions with the manufacturers.

I just called Ardex technical and said someone was recommending I use their tub gear on a large format porcelain. They said they wouldn't recommend it for anything over 300x300 "because it just won't dry out". Mentioning plasterboard got a slightly less concerned noise, and a bit of a rant about people trying to build out uneven walls to cope with large formats, but the recommendation was still firmly for one of two cement products.

You try it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Yes - I tiled on top of tiles in the shower cubical and that took several days to set hard. But it did eventually.

I wonder if the OP's tiler mate is one of those who has to finish everything by yesterday - fair enough if it's how you make your living - but not really relevant for DIY where most have to measure twice to cut once. ;-)

It's the same argument you get about wet tile cutters against score and snap. Wet is better in every way - except speed.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

What made you read all this rather than just asking the tile supplier? Or reading a 'how to' leaflet in a DIY store? They all sell large tiles these days.

Sounds like they were on something. Pretty well every house these days has plasterboard walls somewhere. But it's little different from plaster on brick, etc, in practice. Which covers 99% of domestic walls.

Sigh. How many times do you have to be told I have done. As have others here. And of course it dries. May take slightly longer with large tiles - but so what?

[Bolted]

Arf. I like to find out what people who know what they are doing think. Not what the ill-informed think.

Did you read what I wrote - oh of course you didn't, because you know it all already.

I meant trying asking someone who knows what they are talking about - by calling the Ardex tech line to see if they agreed with your homespun reasoning. They didn't when I asked them. Maybe you would get a different answer.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Think I'll give a reasoned reply. Fuck off.

[Arfa Daily]

Arf. I like to find out what people who know what they are doing think. Not what the ill-informed think.

Is that directed at me ? If so, I suggest that you read the headers as to who posted what, a little more carefully ... I have actually said nothing to you, that wasn't polite, and didn't reflect real life experience, gained over many years of - well - real life really ...

It was you who threw the word "bodger" in my direction, as I recall.

Arfa

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Think it's to me.

He's been told by several here that at least certain brands of tub adhesive are fine with tiles larger than 300 x 300mm - including me. I have a large bathroom with the walls totally tiled with ones bigger than that - and heavy floor porcelain ones at that. And since they've been up for over a year I hardly expect any problems now.

If he's found a maker of adhesive who's help line says it's not suitable - use another make. I used Homebase own brand which was on offer at the time.

Given how common large tiles are these days I'd expect a warning on the tub if it wasn't suitable - like they do for porcelain.

[Arfa Daily]

Well I thought that Dave, but it started "Arf" so that's why I took it to be aimed at me ...

[Ian_m]

I was told never to PVA under tiles as it prevents the tile adhesive getting a proper bond on the wall, especially plaster board and wood.

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[Dave Plowman (News)]

It would certainly increase the setting time for a non cement based type.