Thermal Stores and Heat Banks Question

The wiki article

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(for the sake of illustration) that the water in the store reaches 70C when fully heated the incoming cold water is at 10C the hot water must be at least 40C to be acceptable the heat exchanger is perfect, i.e. there is no temperature drop across it.

As DHW is heated it will rise to 70C (when the store is fully heated) and will cool the water in the store to 10C. If the cooled water is thoroughly mixed with the hot water the whole store will progressively cool until it reaches 40C after which the temperature of the DHW becomes unacceptable. However if the water cooled to 10C is kept separate and only the water at 70C is fed to the heat exchanger then the DHW will continue to produce acceptable water until the whole store contains only water at 10C. In the first scenario the amount of heat available by cooling the store from 70C to 40C is available for heating DHW, while in the second the amount of heat available is that of cooling the store from 70C to 10C. This gives much more DHW for a given volume of store at a given temperature. Stratification, where the cool water at the bottom of the store remains relatively separate from the hotter water further up, provides a means of approaching this goal.

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Comments here concern the thermal store.

I'd like to suggest that with stratified water, at end of useful hot water output one has a situation where the water at the top of the heat exchanger is 40C, and water below graduates down to 10C, rather than all water being at 10C. There isnt any way you could get hot water at

40C from a tank thats all at 10C, or 20 or 30. This still gives much more output than with a no-stratified tank.

Second I have a question related to the thermal store diagram and how it might perhaps operate more effectively. I think we can accept that the water in teh cylinder will vary from bottom to top in a continous temperature progresion, ie 10,11,12,13,14 etc all the way to perhaps

65C or thereabouts. And we're assuming the water enters e heat exchanger at 10C for this example.

The thermal store diagram is shown with the exchanger in the top half of the cylinder only. The water here would mostly be well above 10C.

Now, if the exchanger is in the top part of the cylinder, the mains pressure cold water comes into the bottom of the heat exchanger, which is halfway up the tank, and will meet tank water temp of somewhere between 10 and 65C, lets say maybe 35-40C. What this means is at end of useful hot output, the water below the heat exchnager will be about the same temp as it was before HW was drawn off, namely a gradient from 10C to 40C.

OTOH if one were to use a full height heat exchnager, with the cold fed to the heat exchange pipe at the bottom of the tank, not half way up, that bottom half of tank water prewarms the HW before it reaches the half way up the tank level in the heat exchange pipe. This means the top half of tank water has to do less work, and the heat, or just warmth, is being drawn out of the colder water in the bottom half. IOW you'll get more total volume of HW out, and the tank will end up with colder water in the bottom half than if it used a top section only heat exhanger.

I'm not sure if I've explained it too good!

NT

Reply to
meow2222
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I only have perssonal experience of the Heatbank installed in my house (others may vary) but IMHO your suggestion doesn't track with actuality .... I cannot "accept that the water in teh cylinder will vary from bottom to top in a continous temperature progresion, ie 10,11,12,13,14 etc all the way to perhaps 65C or thereabouts" Experience, and judicous prodding of the pipes with a digital thermomer, leads me to conclude that hot water 'floats' on top of colder water. {BTW; I have a _personal_ dislike of the term 'water' used when describing Heatbank operation - I prefer to use the term _fluid_ (albeit it water) to differentiate between 'water' that becomes DHW and 'fluid' that lives within the boiler, heatbank and radiator circuits ~ I trust you'll bear with this foilble}. On the heatbank I've installed 'fluid' is drawn off the top of the cylinder (where it's hottest} and enters the Heat Plate Exchanger{HPE) surrendering some of its heat. This fluid is injected back into the cylinder at the bottom. Thus the hottest fluid is always at the top. {This situation continues until there's no more 70deg 'fluid' at the upper surface. IMHO, the continuos gradient you/'ve surmised doesn't arise.

My actual installation has the HPE more-or-less in the middle BUT it's fed off two aperture locateted 'very close' to the top of the cyclinder (Hot) and 'very close' to the bottom of the cylinder for 'cooled' return.

Dubious conslusion: the HPE accepts fluid from the very top of the cylinder - it's physical location is irrelevant. For practical purposes it's apposite to install it onto the cylinder removed from the penetrations -hence 'mine' is mounted about 'half-way-up' ... but it's fed off apertures at the top and bottom. Your other surmises are premised on a dodgy conclusion.

Me too; I hope I've explained it as well.

Reply to
Brian Sharrock

Only trouble is, I think we're talking about 2 different things there. I was specifically talking about the other type of system, where the water runs through a heat exchanger located inside the tank. Things will be a bit different with your external exchanger setup.

Well, at least the fluid vs water terms help.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

OK! From your usage of the phrase "the heat exchanger, which is halfway up the tank" as opposed to 'immersed heating coil', I inferred you were referring to an external plate heat exchanger. BTW; your observations was one ot the reasons why I 'rejected' that design in my 'procurement' policy.

OK ! I personally found the hot water here- cold water there- _very_ confusing, particularly trying to determine where the water in the boiler versus the water in the bath were ... so I instructed myself to cite one as a fluid ( system, heat transfer, ...water) and the other as water (potable, warm or cold). With these differentiated the penny dropped .... and I purchased a vented, heatbank which operates the CH and DHW .... and clears the loft of a cold water storage tank.

Reply to
Brian Sharrock

Very interested in this debate - particularly good thermal store/heat bank design - what is the best "professional" source of design info? Book? Online?

Reply to
dom

In one respect the best info source is likely news:alt.solar.thermal. Thats if you want to look at all options and evaluate them thoroughly.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

What make of heat bank?

People are confused and the Wiki is not that good. A thermal store (immersed coil) and a heat bank (using plate heat exchanger) operate on the same "principle" and are of the same family. However in detail they are very different with the heat bank far more efficient. Manufacturers don't help with come calling heat banks thermal stores. I have heat transfer fluid (water) from the store enter the plate heat exchanger at over 70C and the amount of heat it transfers to the incoming mains water drops the heat transfer fluid to below 20C. I can wrap my hand around the pipe and it feels quite cool.

Plate heat exchangers are far more efficient than an immersed coil.

ACV have a hybrid thermal store/tank-in-tank unvented cylinder. They claim the boiler will always condense. They so this by having a DHW coil at the very bottom of the cylinder. Fresh cold water enters the coil cooling the bottom of the cylinder greatly. Then the water rises through a pipe into an immersed tan-in-tank further up the store. The coil lower down pre-heats the DHW and cool the bottom to endure condensing operation at all time.

The coil is in the top half because the bottom half is reserved for CH. The great thing about heat banks. If designed correctly they can combine the energy output of the stored transfer fluid (water) and the boiler. This means the store can be downsized.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Yep. They are different. So talk about one or the other.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

The terms are usually primary water (transfer fluid) and secondary water (potable) . Many can't grasp this either.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

The best ask me, after reading http://www.heatweb,com They explain it quite well.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

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