temperature valves on all taps

[Doctor Drivel]

Lord Hal, have you seen the light?

[Doctor Drivel]

I understood it clearly.

You store the water above 65C. ACV store the water in their tank-in-tanks and provide a TMV. If the water blended down to 45C and returned to the cylinder, it is re-heated to greater than 65C killing any legionella. In commercial systems, point of use TMVs makes sense as they sent water greater than 65C down the draw-offs, to ensure no Legionella is in the long, high water content pipework. This does not apply to domestic. Having copper cylinders and drawoff pipes helps kill bacteria too; one of the reasons for having copper draw-off pipes. In commercial systems is may be steel pipework.

[Aidan]

Clearly you did not.

It is explained here;

From that article; " Incidentally, the minimum temperature you can set the cylinder thermostat to is 65=BAC. This, according to ACV, complies with World Health Recommendations to eliminate the risk of legionella bacteria forming. Above the cylinder is a mixing valve, where you can regulate your hot water to exactly what you want. So you could take the hot water up to

90=BAC (the highest setting) and mix it down to say 60=BAC, which is our norm in this country."

The TMV on the tank outlet is there to reduce the water temperature from 65 to 90 degC to 60 degC. It is not to be confused, as you have confused it, with anti-scald TMVs which should be installed at the point of use.

Rubbish. The circulation return connection would be before the TMV. Install it afterwards, and, with no draw off, the circulating water is blended with cold and returned to the storage. Since the water volume has been increased by the addition of cold water from the mains and there has been no draw-off, the volume of the storage cylinder must gradually increases? Stretchy rubber cylinders?

Utter Bollox. The bacteria is only controlled by the high temperature.

[Doctor Drivel]

You don't know too much about these sort of things do you?

[Matt]

Hal ?

I'm assuming you mean me. In answer to your question, no, I've always held those views.

[Doctor Drivel]

Lord Hall, I do mean you.

Lord Hall, now that is overt porkieness.

[Guy King]

The message from Matt contains these words:

Yes, Dave?

[Aidan]

A Manufacturers' press release from 1999 claiming legionella is "inhibited" by copper pipes? I can't see that standing up in court.

The only control regimes in the HSE L8 ACOP are temperature control and silver ionization (requiring an expensive machine). Temperature is the only control regime you'll encounter in the real world, i.e., store & distribute at 60, mix at point of use.

And the stretchy storage cylinders?

[Doctor Drivel]

What court case is this? Also:

[Doctor Drivel]

Also:

COPPER COULD HELP PREVENT THE SPREAD OF FLU INFECTIONS:

[Ed Sirett]

LST radiators are now required (so I'm told) in nurseries.

The LST radiators have about 90% of the output relative to the normal radiator of equivalent size. Most of the output is by convection. The cost is around 2-3 times normal radiators.

[Aidan]

Have been for 20 years, at least, for the same reasons that require TMVs on hot water supplies. TRVs alone won't work on rads because the water flow temperature is still too high (75 degC ish). You need a heat emitter using standard CH flow temperatures but with no exposed hot surfaces OR a heat emitter which provides the required heat output at low flow temperatures eg underfloor heating.

[John Stumbles]

Amy reference to what regs?

Sadly they spent a lot of time and effort covering the entire floor in cork tiles a couple of years ago, which would make installing UFH even more difficult. I think we're going to have to box in the rads and apply a _lot_ of insulation and draught-proofing to get the heat loss down (which'll be a good thing anyway).

Interestingly the hall of the main school building does have UFH, which works well.

[Aidan]

Don't know offhand, the relevant folders from my Education Authority days are in the loft. Probably Health & Safety at Work. If you can find a reference to statutes on the TMVA site, it would be the same ones applicable to heating. The employer has a duty of care & there's a forseeable & avoidable risk. It was only required in nurseries & special needs schools.

The approach then (pre-widespread use of UFH) was to use fan convectors or LST radiators. One fan heater was 'boxed-in' but the guards in the airstream got hotter than the heater. You'd do best with LST rads which are sold for that purpose.

[Aidan]

The manslaughter trial of duty-holder so misguided as to rely on the half-baked theories of Dr. Drivel, the internet's Dionysius Lardner.

WOW! Three sensational press releases from groups with a vested interest in promoting the use of copper plumbing. Copper COULD HELP prevent the spread infections. Yipee.

HSE Approved Code of Practice and Guidance L8, Legionnaires' Disease

"169 Temperature Regime- This is the traditional approach to legionella control. It is recommended that hot water should be stored at 60=BAC and distributed so that it reaches a temperature of 50=BAC within one minute at outlets. Care is needed to avoid much higher temperatures because of the risk of scalding. At 50=BAC the risk of scalding is small for most people but the risk increases rapidly with higher temperatures and for longer exposure times. However the risk, particularly to young children or the handicapped or elderly and to those with sensory loss, will be greater. Where a significant scalding risk has been identified, the use of TMVs in baths and showers should be considered to reduce temperature. These need to be placed as close to the point of use as possible."

Clear enough? A document with legal standing, that does stand up in court. Abide by L8 and there's no problem. Ignore L8 and you go to gaol.

[Aidan]

Yes, this seems to be the relevant bit;

[nightjar]

I am slightly surprised at that price, but Nursing Homes more usually fit at least 22mm valves, as they use them for baths and / or multiple handbasins.

All covers reduce the heat output a bit, some more than others. The ones we make were designed by the chap I bought the business from last year. He had been in heating for 35 years before he retired and took a lot of trouble to get the details right - good air flow to minimise the loss of efficiency, all corners and edges rounded for safety* and easy, but tamper resistant, access for radiator bleeding and cleaning.

• The NHS are currently doing a risk assessment on LST covers, after someone was killed by hitting their head on one. I have been told it was due to the edge being folded and relatively sharp.

There is a rather poor site I inherited at

but I haven't finished making the replacement and it does have illustrations of the covers. The chap maintaining the site has still not updated the contact details though, so don't take any notice of them.

My email is not working on this machine, which is the only one I use for Usenet, so I can't contact you direct from here. However, if you want us to quote, email me at [e-mail] fax to 01903 731242 or call on 01903 715751.

Regards

Colin Bignell

[Doctor Drivel]

The manslaughter trial of duty-holder

interest in promoting the use of copper plumbing. Copper COULD HELP prevent the spread infections. Yipee.

HSE Approved Code of Practice and Guidance L8, Legionnaires' Disease

"169 Temperature Regime- This is the traditional approach to legionella control. It is recommended that hot water should be stored at 60ºC and distributed so that it reaches a temperature of 50ºC within one minute at outlets. Care is needed to avoid much higher temperatures because of the risk of scalding. At 50ºC the risk of scalding is small for most people but the risk increases rapidly with higher temperatures and for longer exposure times. However the risk, particularly to young children or the handicapped or elderly and to those with sensory loss, will be greater. Where a significant scalding risk has been identified, the use of TMVs in baths and showers should be considered to reduce temperature. These need to be placed as close to the point of use as possible."

Clear enough? A document with legal standing, that does stand up in court.

Abide by L8 and there's no problem. Ignore L8 and you go to gaol.

[Homer2911]

[Aidan]

No Drivel. I have referred to hard evidence that Legionnella in H&C water systems is killed and controlled by control of water temperatures. I have made nothing up, I refer you to the HSE publication.

You have referred to 3 press releases from interest groups that claim copper MIGHT control some infections.

You don't know much about this, do you.