What colour should tanalised timber fence panels be straight from the supplier? They're the feather edged variety, not lap.
A neighbout had some installed and they're a faded orange. I was pretty sure that tanalised (Tanalith E) stuff is green, which seems to be confirmed by the manufacturers:
IME (of my neighbour's fence), these blow to pieces in the wind before they rot in the rain, so I'm not sure I would bother paying extra for ones which don't rot so fast.
Thanks, but that really shouldn't be a problem with a feather edge/ closeboard panel. Perhaps you're thinking of the orange lap panels from the DIY stores? It's the similarily in colour between these and those that's worrying me, as I assumed the store ones were just tank dipped rather than pressure treated.
Not all treated timber is tanalised, I'm seeing more and more timber treated with 'Protim' treatment. This gives no discernible colouring to the timber. They supply a treatment certificate with the timber, otherwise you wouldn't know it had been treated!
I think it's this stuff..
Just looked at the Wickes site. They list Dipped Close Board Panels (F/E) which they state are "Pressure-treated to ensure durability" and are orange. They also list Premium Fence Panels (wany lap) and don't mention any kind of treatmant at all. They are also orange.
So I guess you can't tell by the colour.
Thanks somebody. By the look of it, the clear one is designed for internal uses or high-maintenance external ones, i.e. window frames etc. that are then painted.
Their NatureChoice one is green, as with tanalised stuff. Guess this is a common theme arising from the copper. They do the Osmose Royale, which appears to be treated under pressure with a coloured oil. Looks really good compared to the tanalised effect (green or orange/brown!).
Perfect! Thanks for that Dave - cold sweats abating.
Looking into it there is a colourant that may be added at some point in the tanalising process called, you guessed it, tanatone. When you read the descriptions of it it says brown, but I've just been searching and a lot of the online pics look that faded orange colour I was trying to describe. My stuff looks exactly like the closeboard panels on the Conway Fencing website:
Dear Bromley86
Tanalised timber used to be quite specifically =93CCA=94 (Copper Chrome Arsenate) in a water borne process, originally developed at the Forest Research Institute in Dehra Dun, India. Its great property is that it chemically combines with the hydroxyl groups on the timber and cannot, therefore, be leached out by ponding or wicking when subjected to passing water and fights the tendency of mycelial sacrificial hyphae to translocate away from the hyphal front the heavy metal ions that do the protection. It had to remain in the treatment plant for (I think) 48 hours for the chromium (7?) salts to fix and change because until it was fixed the product was carcinogenic. Once fixed, the surface was fine and even ok for children=92s play grounds...then the Americans and the EU got their teeth in (mainly a sop to the German =93greens=94 in banning arsenic)and had their way... By studying decaying treated timber in compost (which is not the same as ground contact) they discovered alleged leaching =96 which may well have been translocation =96 and that was that! Other countries climbed on the bandwagon as a purely precautionary measure even though the product had been used for years with no epidemiological data to suggest a problem.
The EU in its wisdom has taken away our facility to use arsenic and the product is not longer the same.
Tanalith E is different in that it is =93 a waterborne product based on copper triazole technology. Copper is derived from recycled sources and triazoles are organic biodegradable biocides, commonly used to protect many of the food crops we eat.=94 See
The alternative water borne chemicals used are now Alkaline copper quaternary (ACQ) Copper azole (see above) Various other copper compounds
Water borne pressure treated timber with other than CCA or Tantath E should not really be called =93tanalised=94 which is a registered trade name and product
See
Mention was made in a later post of a dipped product. This is not to be confused with or even compared with a pressure impregnated product. The two perform quite differently.
Mention was also made of the Protim process (aka double vac or vac- vac). This also is quite different. It used to be an OS borne preservative (and technically still is) that got an active ingredient into the timber without dimensional changes or, most importantly any chemical fixing so it is less effective, and is used for internal joinery and things like roof battens. All such active ingredients are relatively easily leached out.
Nowadays the EU directive on such OSs have resulted in the development of Aquavac where water is the carrier fluid. Result? Dimensional changes to joinery =96 ok not bad ones but not good for high quality end products
A coloured oil will be of limited use as its main function will be water repellancy and UV protection with limited action as a fungicide. It may look nice but that=92s not much use if it rots!
Colour could be result of an added colouring agent or the active ingredient Simply ring up your supplier and ask what precisely he has supplied and if it is not tanalith send it back!
Chris George
You can also tell that they don't really know what they are selling. Pressure treating is not the same as dipping in terms of penetration of the preservative. However, I suppose that one might argue that it won't make much difference with DIY store fence panels with boards not much thicker than your Rizla papers.
I've found that it's far better to go to a specialist fence supplier, ideally one who manufactures as well, and to select from their products. They do the generic products at a lower price than the supermarkets and much better quality ones for perhaps 30-50% more. That plus a decent job with decent posts is worth the investment, I think.
Right. Can someone add this to the timber FAQ (or correct it).
I would just make sure they don't end up with leaves or soil piled up against them, and if they're somewhere sheltered apply a water repellent preservative from time to time.
Before installing I would also coat (with a wood stain or bitumen paint) the end grain at the bottom edge of the slats where they face the ground .
cheers, Pete.
I noticed that as well. Are they dipped or pressure treated?
The Wickes close boarded FE panels are pretty good actually.
Agreed. I buy my fence panels & decking stuff from BATS who are a timber importer.
Chris, please, please, please find the time to add your knowledge of timber preservation to the group Wiki thingy (John Rumm knows what I mean).
Thanks Chris, love the detail! My supplier has said that it's tanalised, so it was just my suspicious nature that made me ask.
We have a good local fencing place and they make all their own stuff (including posts and gravel boards). They seem to just dip[1] panels rather than pressure treat, but it does not seem to have reduced the life of any of them. Ones I replaced 12 years ago with feather edge close boarded (made with proper aris rail), are still as solid as when new. The colour has faded somewhat.
[1] The lass who runs the place says you can return them at any time to have them re-dipped at no charge if you want!
Yup, I would second that... (Chris' post from the other day regarding durability of various timber species would make a good article as well).
There is already a (funny) wood rot article:
If you fancy adding some stuff, then just hit the edit link at the top of the page to add stuff - note that due to previous issues with spamming, this particular article is protected from anonymous edits - you need to log in first to edit this one, you can create an account if required. Alternatively if you prefer to leave wiki editing to others, just post the article here and someone will copy it over for you.
Chris, would you mind if I copied that onto our wiki? The wood rot article is really in need of more expertise. Or if you prefer to write something specifically for the wiki, great.
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Dear John As you may realise, I run a business (name and address witheld!)as a consultant in timber biodeterioration with particular reference to historic buildings and litigation mainly about dry rot, but for the last 11 months have put it on hold as I have been working on designing and installing a heat pump in Anglesey for SWIMBO's house which I do not own. That has meant I have been away from my office in London for all but about 7 days of the last 11 months and working on this major project which involved largely a rebuild. 12 to 16 hour days and up to 6 chaps on site none of whom have the slightest clue as to what a critical path analysis is or can plan for more than a few hours in advance! (the builder was partly administered by the architect who visited about once a month and thus had free reign to come (or not!) and go as he liked depending on his other jobs. It overan by 52 weeks on a 20 week contract - yes that makes 72 weeks!) I say all this to explain that I cannot take time to write a proper article with the appropriate references that is accurate and up to date until probably next September when the project will be finished and I have returned back to London. Happy to do it then In the meantime feel free to add any bon mots to the FAQ but not to wikipedia until I have made sure of my accuracy and tidied it up
If I do get a moment I will most certainly try to use your link but at present I am back in London on an expert opinon for the Construction Court with deadlines and only here until 10th July when I go back to Anglesey. Chris
Yup, I did stick a www on your domain name and have a look about ;-)
Quite understand!
I was not suggesting wikipedia - we have our own wiki just for this group hosted by one of the regulars:
There is also the older FAQ:
If you have no objections, we can grab some of the particularly useful bits from your recent postings and use them to augment articles etc.
When we create completely new articles we normally follow the convention of posting a link here for comments anyway, so any such use should be visible for you when you do get time.
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John Now that I know your own Wiki is your own - feel free to use whatever you like and send me the link and I can just double check it is OK which I am sure it will be Good luck Chris
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