On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:15:41 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote this:-
It's a different price bracket to a food processor. However, it is not in a different price bracket to a number of other purchases.
If one considers personal opinions on the visual space to be the environment.
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:18:05 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry wrote this:-
It is always reassuring when the best someone can do is twist what someone else has written to distortion and then argue about that distortion. It generally indicates that they have no better argument.
This sort of thing may impress some, but it isn't convincing.
I'm not so sure. Few buy gadgets at over 1000 quid (plus installation) that don't do what they say on the box. It would be a bit like buying a large TV to find it only worked when it felt like it...
Apart from that they may make noise.
You could try answering all the other points you so consistently sidestep. Such as why FoE don't help consumers get an honest appraisal of the potential of rooftop wind generators.
Greenwash is obviously a solvent for sense of humour.
I have no chance of a turbine at home, too built up and very small semi detached house, I will be doing solar dhw. Not being an economist I tend to a simple rule, I need a rate of return on investment of >10% and a minimal maintenance life exceeding 10 years before I'll jump. This means capital spend must be kept low.
The reason for my interest in the wind figures is because niches do exist where they appear to have a decent payback. Now the heatpump powered by such a device with some intelligent, but simple, switching appears to be a means of getting better utility out of the unscheduled supply from the wind, for both heating and cooling. On a first stab at it it seems likely that 33% of the power supplied will be at a time when there is minimal electrical demand, what price do we put on that. It looks likely to me that a system that puts a value on, and uses, all the wind generated electricity will trump the higher cost of a UK
83 compliant grid inter tie and "spilling" the electricity to the grid.Again the scenario I am working to is that grid connection is existing, there is no credit from the grid electricity provider for "spillage" and ROCs cannot be claimed (though this point may be debatable). The building is an isolated house sitting in a hectare high up near Exmoor, its owner has no truck with renewables but will accept an economic argument. Given the above how valuable is the wind generated electricity assuming a site with a resource able to generate
30% of the installed capacity over a year ( whether this is the case will only be demonstrated by a trial)? Then how much will it cost in installation and maintenance.Yes, I have a simple wood stove which I need to ash out weekly and light daily, I still make use of the convenience of a gas central heating system that switches itself on.
I think it is perceived wisdom that making best use of what ever energy source you have is the first step.
AJH
In message , AJH writes
I've posted all the data in a spreadsheet at
for anyone who wants to have a play. (About 4.5meg)
Hansen never had one to start with. Few zealots do.
Cheers Steve
AJH
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:18:26 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote this:-
Do penis extension cars provide the open road and sex that the adverts show?
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 12:03:12 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry wrote this:-
Friends of the Earth said homeowners would only save tiny amounts of electricity by investing in turbines. 'For householders the idea of a turbine is very sexy because it's an exciting piece of kit. It's making a very visible statement to the effect that, "I'm doing my bit",' said Nick Rau, a campaigner at the group. 'It's glamorous to put something on your roof. But if energy efficiency is the top priority, there are many other, much more straightforward things you could do that are much more cost effective, and more beneficial for the environment, like insulating your loft thoroughly.'
You mean you don't know?
Oh yes. You should get one.
It's still a rubbish statement. It *implies* there may still be some benefits in a home turbine as regards cost effectiveness. There are none.
They have said nothing of the sort on their web site "A simple guide to micro-renewables".
The FoE Scotland web site says :- " Wind Turbines - These generate power by converting kinetic energy from the wind into rotating shaft power, which in turn generates electricity. Turbines vary in size and power and can be mounted on a building or freestanding... Costs and grants: From around £1,500 for a small rooftop system (which would power a TV, DVD player, computer, fridge, freezer and several lights) to between £4,000 and £18,000 for fully-installed systems to meet the needs of a household or community building."
It then has a "useful link" to Windsave and other manufacturers sales sites.
The figure on the FOES web site are completely unrealistic for over
90% of people in the UK and utterly incompatible with the quote of "only save tiny amounts of electricity". However, it is this web site which a prospective buyer will find, not a quotation in the Observer. The Observer quote says that there are other more cost effective things you can do. What it studiously avoids saying is that for the vast majority of people these devices are not merely a poor investment but are completely useless. In most situations they will never even recoup the energy expended in manufacture, shipping and installation never mind generate useful amounts of electricity.As a regional representative for FoE in Scotland you obviously have some influence - why not encourage them to put an objective assessment of the capability of roof mounted wind turbines on the web site and more importantly, an explanation of how the effectiveness can be calculated by a prospective purchaser more accurately than by the deeply flawed and wildly optimistic (for this application) NOABL model?
Yes, but not at the same time.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 11:53:37 +0000 someone who may be Peter Parry wrote this:-
As usual links for people to follow your references are missing. People may ponder why. Here is the link:
There is no contradiction between the quote by Friends of the Earth England, Wales and Northern Ireland which I pointed out and the quote by Friends of the Earth Scotland you referred to. The best one might say is that there is a difference of emphasis, which could simply reflect the difference in wind conditions between the two areas.
Do you really feel that there is no contradiction between
"would only save tiny amounts of electricity"
and
"would power a TV, DVD player, computer, fridge, freezer and several lights)"?
If so please tell me where to buy the microconsumption versions of the items listed so I can run them all off "a tiny amount of electricity".
Don't you think a potential buyer looking for FOE opinions on windmills would be just a tad mislead into thinking they would be able to do what FOE say and run a TV, DVD player, computer, fridge, freezer and several lights when in reality they would be lucky to light a small torch bulb?
Why the reluctance to provide objective advice on how to work out if they are suitable? No one else seems to be doing it and if your aim is to educate then surely explaining to people how to correctly calculate the real capabilities of these systems is appropriate?
So as you seem to be the only person repeatedly defending small B&Q type wind turbines. Have you fitted one ? if not why not ?
-
Indeed. I'd have thought that some of the FoE people would have not only installed them but put up output figures (preferably including real-time) on the web.
Similarly, I'd have thought that B&Q would have seen the advantage of having one installed at each store (or, better still, on a house nearby), with the figures on a large display in-store.
The message from snipped-for-privacy@holdthefrontpage.co.uk contains these words:
I saw one of the B&Q fans in the flesh today in Wednesbury. It was tiny
- not much more than a glorified deskfan.
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