Suitable job for *novice* plumber?

[Lord0]

Hi guys,

I awoke this morning to discover my kitchen, semi, flooded. I traced the source of the leak to a plynth heater (a "wet" one connected to the central heating system) underneath one of the work units. To my untrained eye it looks as if the valve (isolator?) is leaking AND the joint (compression?) where the heater proper joins to the valve. See pic here:

'm pretty sure the valve is gubbed as no matter how I have it set, either open or closed, water leaks out; more so when set to closed. Am I correct in assuming that these sort of valves work on a "ball" type mechanism rather than a screw and that turning it 90 degrees has the same effect as turning it 450 degrees etc? i.e. the spindle in centre spins but does not move in and out?

The heater is isolated from the rest of the heating circuit by another pair of valves which I closed to stop the leak.

So is this the sort of job me, a novice could attempt? The sum total of my plumbing experience is a few compressions joints......If you reckon I could make a stab at it could you give me some advice as to how to proceed?

Cheers

Lawrence

[Ian Stirling]

Yes. Though they generally will only turn 90 degrees.

You have other valves to isolate the leak. The absolute worst you can really do is to botch the repair and need to turn the valves off again.

Personally, I'd get something like a bag of 10 15mm compression fittings, from

or similar - 89789 , and a few isolating valves like 67155.

Around 15 quid including postage. If this one has failed, others might, and it's not a bad plan to have a few extra.

[Brian Sharrock]

How long has the installation been performing without semi-floofing? In other words is this a recent problem that's just arisen?

I've looked at the photo' .... there seems to be a pair of copper pipes with flexible braids fitted with isolating service-valves. Where is the heater to be found ? Is it 'on' the copper pipes [to left of photo] or the flexible braids? I would anticipate the braids to be connected to the heater. THe isolating service-valves are (usually) a ball with a hole bored through; one aspect blocks off the flow while at ninety degrees the hole, in the ball, aligns with the pipes and permits flow. Passage/alignment in usually indicated by the broad 'slot' on the valve - 'Across' = no flow/ In your photo' a drip seems to be comming from the compression joint ,,,, drips are a b**gger to source as water will seep and then fall due to gravity ... you _may_ not have a drip from the valve spindle . It _may_ all be comming off the compression joint. [The spindle is an unkiely source for the drip off the compression union as that seems to be 'uphill' from the spindle.

This phenonema could be because the valve _is_ closing and the water is then finding its way out thorugh a leaky compression joint.

See above.

I'd try to tighten the compression joint first. Use a spanner to hold the body of the service-vale body and tighten the compression nut.

[Lord0]

Yes curiously its been working fine for the last year (when it was fitted). We did have it running longer than usual though last night (maybe it shook loose?)

The heater is to the left of the picture i.e. connected to the copper pipes on the left of the photo. The flexible braids connect the heater to the main central heating circuit. So:

Heater -> Copper Pipes -> Valves -> Flexible Braids -> Valves -> "Rest of heating system"

I should have mentioned that the spindle for the valve seems extremely loose. Far more so than the valve above. I am *reasonably* confident that there is a problem with the valve as when it is in the closed position water escapes from it in a visible "jet" i.e. it doesn't look like a leak from the compression joint which is finding its way to the valve.

I will try this

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It's very difficult to tell where a leak is actually coming from by where the water ends up. Try cleaning and drying it with kitchen paper towels and then see where the water is coming from. With luck it might only be the compression fitting that needs tightening.

[Lord0]

Thanks man. As I said above "I should have mentioned that the spindle for the valve seems extremely loose. Far more so than the valve above. I am *reasonably* confident that there is a problem with the valve as when it is in the closed position water escapes from it in a visible "jet" i.e. it doesn't look like a leak from the compression joint which is finding its way to the valve. "

[Mark]

It looks from your photo that the valves are integral with the flex hose, which means you will have to replace the complete thing. Unless you have reasonable access to the other end of the flex hose this could be a bugger of a job.

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[dennis]

Do the valves come in pairs or is one of them fitted backwards? The arrows appear to go the same way.

[The Wanderer]

Yup that was my take on the arrangement as well. Looks like a compressed end (not a compression fitting!) from the flexible onto the body of the isolating valve. If you can get to the second set of valves, is there working clearance around them?

All things considered, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. It rather depends on whether or not you can get the old olive off the stub end of pipe. If you can't then you'll be re-using the old olive and compression nut, so you'll need to satisfy yourself that the old nut will go onto the new fitting. It's also worth looking for a suitable (non-setting) jointing compound to smear onto the olive and pipe before tightening everything up.

If the old olive and nut come off easily, and there's some evidence of copper salts being deposited (the typical green/blue verdigris deposits) then just give the pipe stub a light rub around with wire wool before fitting the new olive, just to make sure there's no gunk or detritus left before you fit the new one.

[Mark]

Huh I cover for a mate who is also in the letting game when he is on hols I had the same situation except the other end of the flex pipes went behind the kitchen cabinets and then disappeared beneath the floor, so was completely unreachable, and the integral service valves was the only way to isolate it from the rest of the CH and it was freezing outside. I had to dismantle most of the kitchen units to make a repair, that and the fact that the tenants were the most miserable barstewards I have ever met, added to which it was my mate that did the original plumbing abortion did not me a happy chap.

-

[Matt]

If it's a Myson Kickspace then there is only one valve/flexi part number which when fitted will always mean one arrow points the "wrong way"

According to Myson, who seem to be the only source of these particular crimped flexis/valves, its not a problem.

[dennis]

It makes you wonder why they complicate the production process by having the arrows.

[calums]

I would make a couple of observations. Is it possible, once you have undone the compression joints to remove the radiator (if it is then the rest of the job becomes much easier as you can do 90% of it in an open space. My other observation is that in both cases the olive seems to be showing itself at the pipe end of the nut, this is not normal and would suggest that the nut has been horrendously overtightened- which will always cause a leaky joint. If space is very tight and your plumbing experience is not great then I would be tempted to go for plastic Hep2O pipes and fittings from the copper and just use a pipe cutter to cut the existing nut and olive off (even if using copper and flexible again I would do this since I have doubts about the existign joint as described above.

Again although not common practice, if you are doing this is copper again then you might want to wrap a little PTFE tape around the olives before tightening, or else some plumbers mate. As I say this is not normal practice, but if your experience is limited then it gives you some room for error- and be sure to only tighten the nut enough so that the olive nips into the copper pipe.

Calum Sabey (NewArk Traditional Kitchens 01556 690544)

[The Wanderer]

I'm not sure what your point is, other than you had a pig of a job to do.

The OP did say elsewhere that he'd been able to turn off a second set of valves on the other end of the flexibles. That doesn't in itself necessarily mean there's enough working space around the second valves, hence my question, given that he has quite clearly said he's a novice plumber.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Best bodge by far is Fernox LS-X

[Bookworm]

I notice from your photo that there are flexihoses involved. Flexihoses are not suitable for heating circuits, (Temp range typically -20C -

+85C). Too late now you have got them. They could give you a problem later on. I know I shall get flamed for this posting but I sell the things and have seen the results of using them on heating circuits. They are only for use on domestic hot & cold supplies.

[John]

Myson KickSpace heaters are supplied with the flexi hoses, and as such they are definitely up to the job. The only thing I couldn't weigh up from the OPs photo is that he says that the heater itself is to the left of the photo, ie, connected to the rigid copper pipe rather than the flexies, which seems rather strange.

The whole idea of the flexi hoses (to me, anyway, and certainly in my kitchen) is that the heater can be pulled forward and out from under the kitchen units to get to the bleed valve and the connections (both water and electrical) easily.

John.

[The Wanderer]

I'm guessing the heater matrix will have two 15mm copper stubs a few inches long onto which the flexibles connect.

The manufacturer ain't gonna provide something that's over-engineered, with brass union fittings or similar! :-)

[Lord0]

Guys,

thanks for all the replies. Having read what you said I will say:

1. It looks like the heater is a Myson Kickspace: It appears as if the valves are integrated into the flexable hoses (at the heater end).
2. The hoses DO NOT connect directly to heater. As I said above the layout is thus:

Heater -> small copper pipes -> hoses (with valve on heater end) ->

isolator valve -> rest of heating system.

If as posters say above the hoses are a bespoke Myson product should I attempt to replace with a more generic solution?

Cheers

Lawrence

[John]

Have a look at

which does confirm what one of the previous posters said, ie, the direction of the valve doesn't matter :o)

I would go directly to Myson for a replacement flexi hose - 15mm valve and flexible hose, part No. 1252007.

John.