Solar panels - are FIT payments worth it? Generation FIT vs. export FIT

[dennis]

I think you will find North is worse.

[0345.86.86.888]

I have a quick question for you Tim. Do you vote in local or general elections?

If not, would you vote if a party came to fruition that satisfied your every desire for how things should be?

[0345.86.86.888]

It's being actively encouraged in Germany I believe. less peak but a longer duration to help smooth out the all-southern facing power peak.

[T i m]

;-)

I thought some Uni did some research and suggested some E/W systems offered more output than a pure S one, for the same total area of panel?

Cheers, T i m

[harry]

In exactly the same way. They benefit the owners/shareholders of the installations.

[harry]

People who sit on their arses and do nothing have no morals. Sounds like yo u're one of them. We'd still be in the stone age if we relied on the likes of you.

[harry]

Drivel. East/West only reduces power output by 15%. In Germany solar panels are being installed E/W to extend the availability of solar power. I have a neighbour who has both. This means they can save more electricity.

[dennis]

There needs to be a mix of E/S/W panels with more W and E than S to provide a smoother peak. That is unless someone builds some storage.

The spongers that don't care will just put them South where they get maximum fits without any regard to need.

[T i m]

Nope. You really are brain dead aren't you harry? (And don't forget I would be far from the first to say that on here). ;-)

Yes, of course, because they are generating energy that they don't use themselves for free ... AND force others to pay for!

Or maybe you think there are whole families living in these places ... or even in the wind turbines! ;-)

(I'm not saying a power station might not pay for it's own electricity use, but even if it didn't it would be miniscule compared with the amount of energy it supplies to others, twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five days of the year.)

Is this all really so difficult for you to understand or are you so desperate to justify your own immoral position you will try any BS / distraction to try to ease your conscious (assuming you have one that is)?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Is that what you think I'm doing here and you aren't?

There is a good chance I had my first solar panel long before you did ... and (FWIW) I've had a full plug-in electric car before most people in the world (over 25 years) ... and it's because I have actually used and experienced these things I know exactly what they can and can't do and why I haven't gone into the solar PV thing for myself (even though I could if I chose to).

'Sounds to you like I'm one of them' you mean?

Ere harry, how about you try to explain why so few people have taken up the FIT theft offer and how it is predicted (is demonstrated) that will drop even more now they have reduced just how much they steal off us to give you and your kind?

See if you can do so without the 'exploring new horizons' bs (considering how long solar systems have been available) and without lying about the motives of making use of the FIT for nearly everyone who realises who is actually paying for it.

And we would be in the dark ages (*every night of the year* and *most of the winter*) if relied on solar PV eh harry!!

It's not the fools who rushed in on the whole FIT thing, it was those who didn't actually understand how it worked and if they did it was those with the lest ethics / morals.

This was proven when I was playing with a solar PV supplier cold-caller and discussing the FIT system. When he found out I had my own house, it had a South facing roof and could afford the system, he couldn't understand why I wouldn't go for it. He went as far as calling me 'a mug' for being 'bothered' about the idea of forcing other electricity users to subsidise my own electric use!

No, if you want to put your (sorry, 'our') money where your BS is re tasking us forward into a new green energy revolution ... keep the panels on the roof, keep it set up just as it is in fact but give ALL your FIT blood money to some company (even) who are working on developing REAL renewable energy.

Or, and you might go for this as we already know just how selfish you are ... add a battery storage to your system (once you have designed a green one) so you aren't ALSO relying on the rest of us keeping those real-world power generators running 24/7 .

No, I didn't think you would (or could) ... in the same way you never seem actually able to justify your immoral position, outside of your own greed. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Sounds like a good solution (the mix).

But whilst that will smooth out the (supply) peak it won't actually increase the net effect will it? In fact it won't help the rest of us at all as it's only the peaks that generally take the level outside what the (domestic) FIT scroungers can't use themselves (I can see harry turning stuff on just to use it all up himself!). ;-(

I'm pretty sure they don't have any regards past their own needs mate, or they wouldn't have gone into such a selfish scheme in the first place ... ;-( [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] Few contest the concept of domestic and farm sized solar PV installations supporting our energy needs (all be it so unpredictable to be useless), it's *just* the FIT and how it pays people (at a level over and above the going rate and is index linked, guaranteed for 20 years and tax free) for the electricity they use themselves! Now, if they were paid *just* for what surplus they exported, even if they used most of it themselves, then that would be a different matter. To prove they aren't all selfish and greedy there is nothing stopping them giving their FIT theft to suitable (eco / charitable) causes.

[T i m]

Makes sense according to the Uni who researched this concept.

Translation: 'This means he can earn more money by forcing other electricity users to subsidise him more'.

Now, if it was simply to 'save more electricity' then he *could* give his FIT blood money to a good cause eh? After all, he can't think the whole FIT-up thing is fair can he, just like you can't and I know because you went into it just to help them develop better alternative energy solutions, you too will be donating your FIT theft similarly ... ? We aren't even talking about you not keeping all the energy you generate and use yourself, just the rest of us only paying (even over the odds) for the surplus energy you export. After all, how is your system benefiting anyone other than you otherwise?

And we will even be happy for you to choose an alternative energy research firm or straight 'good works' charity yourself.

See, even though we electricity users didn't get any choice in the matter (to subsidise your intermittent and selfish energy supply) we are giving you the choice of where to donate your FIT blood money! See how different we are from you harry ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Do you admit to people you are on benefits harry (all be that they are paid to you via electricity buyers rather than taxpayers)?

[Tim Streater]

Amazin' how many people say this as if there is a solution out there waiting to be applied, and that's it's only the perversity of SOME PEOPLE which prevents that solution from being deployed.

ITEM: people have been working on battery storage for 100 years or more, and the best that has been produced is, essentially, useless, for the needed purpose. Does any battery system approach the energy density of a tank of dizzle?

ITEM: pumped storage is touted, and what we have is useful. Are there any more potential sites in this country? Apart, I mean, from damming up some of the larger Welsh valleys, and good luck with that.

[T i m]

I don't think so.

As an EV owner of over 25 years and an electric vehicle designer, builder and racer (full size, not just models) over the same period AND a solar panel owner and user ... I'd say it's only just starting to get there. Not necessarily because of a vast improvement in the stored energy available but possibly to do with how efficiently it's used?

Agreed. Using 'surplus' energy to build up a an energy store, even those there are several layers of losses there, is worth doing (because the energy is 'surplus' in the first place). If we had massive over(storage)capacity to cover the longest run of windless / darkest days and enough energy (live and surplus) to keep it charged up then we would have solved most of it.

Does harry live on his own at the bottom of a valley? ;-(

Quite. What about underground? Two (or multiple) massive underground chambers, one above (or generally higher than) the other could work?

And ... being harry is so keen / proud to be a pioneer in all of this, how about we block up his house and use his panels to pump water from the ground to first floors and allow it back though a turbine when the sun goes in? ;-)

I'm sure there would be plenty of people here (even) who would be happy to donate to that particular project and we might even get something in return for our money!

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Hogg]

Limited head, it's a bungalow

and

[T i m]

Thanks for those Chris.

I particularly like the:

"I believe I will get the money invested back in less than four years due to energy price increases that are inevitable in the next few years." No mention if that is with or without the FIT ripoff?

The really funny bit is:

"I believe everybody should be able to benefit from this technology,"

Except of course they can't, especially so when those who have not are sponsoring those who do! He goes on:

"ie all future new houses should be built to passive house standards."

Handy for those of is already in houses or can't get a house at all (not).

"It is important to publicise the fact s about what is possible, many people just don?t know."

I'm guessing he's talking about making those with the opportunity (so not the poor people who could really use the breaks) aware of how it's possible to fleece those same people by adding to their electric bills?

What do they say ... "The rich get richer ... "

Cheers, T i m

p.s. And no wonder the NHS was so inefficient in those days! ;-)

[dennis]

There aren't any such charities.

[harry]

So you're not paying for your electricity? The problem is you're brain dead. Probably a socialist.

[harry]

I hope for the sake of your highly moral position you don't use the library, buses, schools, swimming baths, the pavement, etc etc. All subsidised by the public purse.

[John Jackson]

Doesn?t need to when used in the house to power the house when the sun isn't shining.

In that situation the problem is the cost not the energy density.