SOGA gurus out there? (faulty computer)

[Lobster]

I'm aware that Andy Hall's no longer with us but ISTR there are others here who seem to have an interest/expertise in consumer law...

I've just bought two identical laptop PCs (reputable brand and supplier), and (naturally enough) the first thing I did with them was to attempt to prepare 'Recovery' DVDs (as there were no o/s disks supplied). I experienced identical problems doing this with both machines - the DVD drives wouldn't accept DVDs - and I consulted the manufacturer's web support for advice. They told me to do a clean format/reinstall of Vista to rule out software faults and to try again; I did so and reported back that the problem seemed 75% resolved but I wasn't convinced - at that point I was told I had a software fault, therefore the 'warranty' didn't apply and I should phone a premium rate helpline for further advice!

I was pretty incensed by that and emailed straight back to say that I was taking his machines straight back to the retailer tomorrow as faulty under the Sales of Goods Act, and would replace them with a different brand.

Highly unlikely that I will actually do so, or try to (providing I get the issue sorted OK); but just wondering really - can the mfr just absolve themselves of any liability like this? Presumably they originally installed Vista at the factory; and my guess is they ballsed it up somehow (as I have two PCs with the same problem). So why isn't it up to them to resolve?

David

[TheOldFellow]

I suggest you ask this on uk.legal.moderated (not uk.legal where the loonies live). There are some real SOGA and DSR experts there.

IANAL, but I think have them dead to rights on this, you were sold faulty goods. Mind you, what do you expect using products from the Convicted Anti-Trust Criminal Microsoft.

R.

[dennis]

Your contract is with the retailer not the manufacturer. If it doesn't work when it is as shipped you can take it back and they don't have a leg to stand on. If it works properly until you install some software it is a bit more difficult to prove the fault is with the original machine and not with what you have done.

[Andy Champ]

IANAL but I know your contract is with the retailer not the manufacturer.

Take them back. If you're feeling kind you might like to let *them* call the premium rate line - but be aware if you let them fix things you are actually reducing your rights.

Andy

[Rod]

David,

Remember that SOGA does not help if bought as a business. (Just thinking, most individuals don't buy two laptops at the same time!)

The manufacturer's warranty might indeed exclude anything software-related. But your basic rights are with the retailer. I really would be tempted to take them back and ask for your money back - or for the problem to be sorted. If you cannot make recovery DVDs you are stuffed if, for example, a hard disc ever failed. (Mind, I understand if it all seems too much effort.)

But 'tis bollocks for them to tell you to reinstall Vista to clear a software problem - then say you have (or is that, still have?) a software problem and it's not their problem (without paying through the nose). If the re-installation doesn't clear it, it can't be anything to do with you.

And for goodness' sake, let us know the make and model - and the retailer!

(BTW - Vista *is* a software problem.)

[Cash]

Is there a 'recovery partition' on the hard drive or did you reinstall from a DVD?

If you have reinstalled Vista using the Vista DVD - then you must be able to access the DVD drive - now do you have the software installed to 'burn' data to a DVD disk (either that supplied in Vista [and not switched on] or a third party application such as Nero?

If not, then it is a definitive software problem and they are correct.

Under SoGA 1979 (as amended) your contract is with the supplier of the machines and not the manufacturer and I would return the machines to the supplier for rectification.

As a matter of interest, software is NOT covered by SoGA.

BTW - unless the machines are younger than around 30 days old - then the supplier is under no obligation offer a refund or to change them with a different brand, or even change them at all if a repair will rectify the problem.

*AND* if the machines have had some use, they can even refund you less than you paid for them if the cannot be repaired.

Have a look at the two links below for more information on SoGA:

the machines are less than a month old, then return them to the supplier for rectification or to confirm that they have actually installed the software on the machines to burn DVDs.

All the best on this David, you may need it - especially after by-passing the system and reinstalling the operating system.

Cash

[Peter Parry]

It is not so much a case of absolving themselves of responsibility as never having had it in the first place.

Was this a business or consumer (private) purchase? If the former your remedies are more limited than if it was a consumer contract.

Assuming it was a consumer sale you have at least one and possibly two enforceable contracts. The first contract is with the supplier, not the manufacturer. This is the primary contract and will include the so called "consumer terms" of the Sale of Goods Act and give you a number of remedies in addition to outright rejection.

The manufacturer may also have supplied a guarantee with the machine. If so that contract is enforceable against the manufacturer. However, unlike the contract with the supplier which has certain unalterable clauses a guarantee can say almost anything the guarantee supplier likes so you will need to read it in detail to see what it offers and excludes.

Because your purchase contract is not with them.

[Peter Parry]

No you are not. Allowing an attempt at fixing things does not reduce your rights at all. See Clegg - v - Olle Andersson trading as Nordic Marine.

[Peter Parry]

Yes it does. It is after all a piece of legislation written for commercial contracts. Certain parts of it may not apply depending upon the Terms and Conditions, other parts apply only to consumer contracts.

[Peter Parry]

Yes it is. There is some debate (and no case law) about whether downloaded software is covered but there is little doubt that package software is covered by the Sale of Goods Act and additionally comes under the Supply of Goods and Services Act and the Unfair Contract Terms Act.

[Rod]

You are right - was thinking SOGA may not apply. But indeed, it is bits that may or may not apply.

[Cash]

Yes my statement was slightly misleading, it is covered only if it is damaged or not working due to a programming error (if it is clashing with other installed applications then that is another matter) - my thoughts may have been on the Distance Selling Regulations.

It will be nice though once the EEC finally sorts this little 'blip' out in the future and then there should be no doubts.

Cash

[Frank Erskine]

IANAL but I think that if your supplier doesn't supply the original OS disks, he is responsible for the OS which he pre-installs on the machine. If you have a problem, therefore, with this software, your supplier is the one to contact. In fact it could be argued that since your supplier installed the OS, _he_ is the effective end user - he used it to finish off 'his' product.

[Geo]

Hi David,

I know you asked about SOGA - and you have plenty of replies on that - so I am looking at it from a different perspective. You don't say what the problem was - I find DVDs variable in my pc - some work some don't. But if the problem was "75% resolved" by re-installing Vista (presumably from their backup partition) then a hardware fault is less likely surely? Could it be that the Vista re-install thing is a red herring and it is just a slight incompatibilty between your chosen media and the dvd writer?

[Rob]

Agree - definitely worth ruling out. I've just had a batch of bad media, first time in a long time.

Rob

[Jules]

Given the horror stories about Vista, it's possibly just the OS itself, too - an "upgrade" to XP or Linux might be a sensible choice...

[Cash]

Don't you mean "upgrade" to XP or *downgrade* to Linux? LOL

Last time I used Linux, I spent more time getting peripherals to work than it was worth - and even after a few hours, the printer drivers refused to talk to operating system.

Ah well, they tell me things have changed a little bit now in the Penguin factory and things may be a little easier - perhaps! :D

Cash

[Ed Sirett]

Just a bit.

Kit that is about a year old or more will run with the major Linux based systems. There are some system which have windoze only hardware.

Ubuntu is rapidly becoming the largest distribution. I use Fedora on both this machine and my laptop.

In fact you'll probably find that most Linux based systems simply 'work' whereas with Windoze you have to keep adding drivers and third party programs (like Power DVD and/or Nero) to make them work.

Also running windows applications seems to be pretty seamless on Linux boxes. To answer the OP.

Put in an Ubuntu or Fedora live DVD. If it boots then you have good kit. If it doesn't then you have broken kit or Windoze only kit, more fool you.

[Jules]

... although I've used it as primary OS for near enough 15 years now, and lots of the 'core' stuff is as good as it ever was, there's just a huge initial learning curve compared to Windows.

It's all horses for courses and depends what the machine's needed for, really (hence my suggesting XP too).

Hmm, reading what the OP wrote, I'm not sure if "not accepting DVDs" means it won't even work in a DVD-ROM capacity, or that it simply won't accept blank DVDs for burning (i.e. it'll read a pre-written disc just fine).

I'd thought about the booting a Linux DVD/CD as a test aspect too, but do such discs let you then take the disc out and use the drive for other purposes? (My guess was that they need the OS disc in there to keep referencing it when they run bits of code that aren't in RAMdisk, but thet's quite possibly wrong :)

cheers

Jules

[Cash]

I must admit that I find life rather comfortable now running Windows XP Home and Linux a distant dream.

I must admit though, that when the life of XP finally expires around 2014 I will be rather tempted then to give the Penguin another go as I believe that Microshaft are adding more and more bloatware to their new systems just to fill their pockets - and enlarge their egos.

By then, I will kicking the door down to the age of 65 and hopefully the Penguin (in Ubuntu disguise) will have evolved to become a truly plug and play OS and I shall then give it another go - says me whoe's getting a real lazy in his old age!

As for the OP - I agree with your advice and I personally think that the problem is either a software conflict, no installed software to run the device or Vista has not had the inbuilt sotware 'switched on'.

Cash