Simple loft conversion

[DanS]

I'm sure that this has been discussed before, so I apologise if this repeats previous posts.

I am considering making some more space in the loft of my 1920s house.

Currently there is 4" of insulation between the joists and an assortment of boards from old fitted cupboards.

At the moment I'm just considering putting in a more regular floor (either boards or chipboard depending on what I can get through the hatch), insulating the sloping roof, fitting some boards under the roof and partition walls. I'm not yet thinking about adding external windows.

I will also want to add some power in due course as there's only a lighting circuit up there. I have heard of part P, but I'm not sure what affect it has in practice.

Are there any planning or building regulations that I need to take into account? There won't be any external change to the property.

I'm think that I can probably just do it, but if we decide to do a proper job in a couple of years then it would be nice to be able to add to what I put in rather than have to take it out and replace it.

thanks

dan

[sm_jamieson]

What is the space for ? Storage ? An office ? Anyway, the most important thing to do is get the floor done properly (can be expensive), since everything else builds on this. But you need to ensure you can prove to a BCO later how it was done, and of course regs may have changed. If I was doing this, I would do the floor probably over-engineered a bit, and have boards that could easily be lifted to show the BCO at a later date. The next thing would be insulating the walls. Once you get this far, you may as well just do a full loft conversion ! Simon.

[BRG]

What will this space be used for Dan?

If the space is simply to be used for *LIGHT* storage then that would be reasonable.

If you are thinking that you may well convert the space into something 'habitable' such as a bedroom/play-room/office, then that will be rather inadequate.

you will "legally" have to comply with Part P for the installation of a power circuit.

For simple, light storage purposes, then building/planning regs generally won't apply. For all other purposes then they will and you will have to carry out some major works to the floor, roof, electrics, access etc.

You will not be able to just "add" to any 'light' storage modifications in the future. You will still have to rip out the work already done and construct a stronger floor, fire resistant access etc - so my advice would be to simply 'bite the bullet' and contact an architect/structural engineer/loft conversion specialist or a good builder and do the job properly now.

Also, if you ever sell the property, the lack of evidence of building reg/planning approval and completion certificates will seriously hamper the sale - and probably devalue the property.

BRG

[Man at B&Q]

Not if it's valued properly in the first place.

MBQ

[TMC]

Did this 25 years ago

Just for storage

First I made the hatch bigger 3ft x 2ft so that I could get things in and out easily

Then installed a loft ladder

Boarded the floor, part reclaimed tongue and groove boards, part flooring grade chipboard all screwed not nailed

boarded rafters with insulated board leaving air gaps at top and bottom for ventilation

Also joined rafters to ceiling joists and boarded to make walls

this made a storage area of 19ft x 12 ft

Cheap job in terms of materials, easy to do and could be shut off whenever so little impact on the rest of the house whilst being done

It would probably only take 2 days to remove the whole lot and return loft to original condition so although I didn't consider building regs if any did apply at that time I do not see this as a issue come sale time

The cost of a proper loft conversion would be so high by comparison that I accepted that even if I had to strip out all that I had done at some future time (should I wish to go for a proper conversion) the benefit in the meantime would be worth it

In the end I extended side and back rather than upwards so the loft remains a great storage area

Tony

[John Rumm]

Since it sounds as if you will be using this as a basis for further enhancements you would probably be wise to do the floor to the final standard now. This need not be that complicated or expensive...

You could for example add some sockets to the circuit currently feeding the existing top floor and it would be classed as a "minor work" (i.e. not notifiable for part pee)

Planning probably not required at this stage (although the rules have been "simplified" in government speak (i.e. made more complex)) since I did mine.

Building regs will apply the moment you want to make a space usable for anything other than storage. Most of these are quite sensible and well worth following even if you did not need to since they will ensure that you don't build a death trap.

So floor first. Here is one way:

[BRG]

If there are no written permissions or completion certificates for such works and a buyers solicitor is sharp - then the property will be devalued, as the seller will either have to try and get retrospective permission for the 'improvements' (usually problematical), put the property back to its original state, pay out for an insurance premium to cover the buyer for any future probems - or cut the asking price by an appreciable amount just to sell - a probable devaluation no matter how you try to wrap it up!

And it gets even more complicated if there is a mortgage on the property and the seller has 'omitted' to inform or get the pernission of the building society or bank for the 'improvements' *before* the commencement of the work - it's part of the agreement that you sign that you tell 'em, as you technically don't own the property until the last installment has been paid!

BRG

[John Rumm]

In many cases a new floor to building regs strength would cost about £1000 in materials, and could be done in a couple of weeks working on your own.

[DanS]

The space is currently used for light storage - hence the assortment of boards.

I would like to make it a playroom or office and also keeping the storage aspects.

The house is quite long and thin so initially I was thinking about a space approx 3m x 6m but there are some internal rafters that meet the roof internally. Also there are large cross beams above the regular joists.

If I wanted to expand into the other half of the roof I would want to move the cold water tank.

Is there a link to the current building regulations?

thanks

dan

[Martin Bonner]

Not true (usually, in England).

You /do/ own the freehold of the property, the mortgage company have a charge on it. They can prevent you selling the property and they can reposses it.

(Originally mortgages were as you describe, where the mortgagor owned the freehold. These days they aren't.

[John Rumm]

This is fine as far as light storage goes...

But at this point you need a real floor, and some insulation.

Tie beams? (these usually run perpendicular to the joists and are nailed to them - they add lateral restraint to the joists to prevent twisting and buckling.

other roof part names discussed here:

If I wanted to expand into the other half of the roof I would want to

[Man at B&Q]

Not if the valuation is correct in the first place. IE you do not include "improvements" in the valuation that add no value. If you add an extra, unofficial, bedroom then the valuation is based on the original state, maybe enhaced by some "useful loft storage space"

I've been there and have practical experience of the situation.

MBQ

[BRG]

MBQ,

IF a surveyor/solicitor/conveyancer for the buyer 'do their jobs correctly' then ANY obvious *structural* alteration such as a loft conversion is ultimately going to be scrutinised for the correct building control/planning permission 'paperwork trail' - and if there isn't any, then the property will be devalued no matter how you try to get around it. I for one would not even think of buying a 'loft converted' property for anywhere near the asking price if there were no *legal* paperwork trail.

BRG

[Tim Southerwood]

BRG coughed up some electrons that declared:

It really depends how long ago. My late father's bungalow was loft converted in the mid 70's by a previous owner. My father bought it in the late 90's. No one gave a stuff, least of all the bank. How do I know there is no paper trail? Well, a phone call to the local council regarding permitted development lead to them saying there were no planning or building control records for that address. When informed that there was a dormer conversion, the response was more or less: "whatever - too late now, we don't care, just knock off the dormer volume from the standard permitted development volume and use what's left".

The people buying the house have been appraised of this and they don't care either. They have been informed that when their solicitor confronts my solicitor (assuming he's doing his job) that the official response will be roughly "buy it or sod off". Probably on the basis that if it hasn't fallen down yet, it never will. For the record, from what I can see, the conversion was reasonably well done and the floor adequately reinforced.

As they say, time heals...

Cheers

Tim

[Man at B&Q]

It depends what was done and how it was done. "Loft conversions" don't have to be "structural". One man's "extra bedroom" is another mans "useful storage". So long as it's valued appropriately then there's no problem.

MBQ