Shedless in South-West Cork !

[Adrian]

Hi All We're emigrating from the Uk to the Republic of Ireland in the next couple of weeks - that's the good news !

The bad news.... - where we're going is to a nice new-build house - which doesn't have any outbuildings (horror !!). Where we are at the moment we have a sprinking of sheds, plus a garage that's 27ft x 20ft and a workshop that's 27ft x 12ft.

We're buying a cheapie prefabricated 'Yardmaster' tin garage as a stopgap - but will need to construct a 'multi-purpose storage facility' (= big shed!) asap. I expect I'll need to get an architect involved (mostly for his local 'planning' knowledge - but want to have a good idea of what I'm doing before his enthusiasm runs away with him.

Still can't get the Agent to make a few measurements of the available space for me - but the general dimensions will be of the order of 9 -

12m long, and probably at least 4m wide. It'll be used partly for storage / workshop, partly as a glass studio, and (possibly) a little bit of a sales/display area for the glass. Needs to look reasonably attractive (so I've been told!)

Given that there will be all kinds of delightful Local Council Planning requirements ..... I'm after some general guidance on construction please...

Flooring - I'm thinking either timber (ply / green chipboard) on joists, supported on concrete blocks - or a concrete slab, then polystyrene, then chipboard. ATM the concrete slab is favourite -provided there aren't any planning implications... Comments / suggestions please ?

Walls -

4 x 2 timber framework. In the past on similar projects I've used (from the outside - in) - rough-sawn shiplap boarding, building paper or similar membrane, thin ply, then 4x2 framework. On a friend's garage / workshop we then filled the 'cavity' with celotex (because we had some spare!) and then finished off inside with more ply. In the 'shed' end there's no real need for any inside finishing after the insulation - although in the studio / showroom area it needs to look a bit nicer... I suppose the next step up from rough-sawn boarding for the outside finish would be some sort of treated 'tongue-and-groove' boarding - but I guess that's getting expensive ..? Comments / suggestions please..?

Roofing I'm thinking of that box profile, plastic coated, metal cladding - the sort of thing they build with on industrial estates. I like the idea of the stuff that's got foam on the back - pretty much a 'one-step' roofing and insulation solution - combined with being fairly strong & self-supporting. On my friend's workshop we used Onduline - but it needed supporting on ply, and was a bit of a pain to install... Comments / suggestions please..?

I've been following the various related ongoing discussions on this newgroup - but would very much appreciate any comments / advice that you can give

Would a project of this size be a good 'excuse' for buying a nailgun ?? - Ooer - just looked at the price of them - probably not !

Many thanks Adrian

[Andy Hall]

e.g. running a business? There might be some restrictive covenants on the property as well?

I've done one this way but using Celotex under the floor - i.e. between the floor joists. This allows the timbers to remain ventilated but gives good insulation with least gain in height. That may be important if moving heavy things in and out.

Only thing with that is that a covering will prevent the Celotex from getting dinged. You can also paint it for extra light reflection.

I would always use TGV to reduce ingress of moisture and the wind. Doesn't it rain horizontally there? :-) ( Sure, I know the water's soft).

Treat yourself. They're great. You can save a lot of time if you are thinking of a large building or several. I bought a Senco framing nailer exactly for this kind of job and other framing in general.

[Adrian]

HI Andy

Thanks for the comments

Yes - need to look into that. Currently I sell on sale-or-return through various UK retail outlets, and through a couple of agents, as well as at specialist shows - but it'd be nice to be able to sell 'direct' to the public...

The area we're going to is packed full of 'arty-types' selling from their studios - so I'm sure I am not the only one to have tackled the problem - need to do some asking around when we get there...

Hadn't thought of that.... We re-did a cellar conversion for the local church - and the flooring there was simply dpm / celotex / chipboard - which worked fine.... If I went the 'slab' route I guess a line of bricks laid around the perimeter would lift the timber frame up out of the wet....?

Hadn't thought of painting it...... The stuff we had was foil-covered - just emulsion that ..?

Sounds like you've been there They do get the odd drop of rain - and, yes, it does tend to come sideways..... I've never used T&G on a shed - presumably it can be had in 'pressure-treated' ?

I guess the only worry is that it'd be a tool for just one job - but I guess they can always be re-sold... Would certainly speed things up, I'd imagine.....

Forgot to ask about windows - probably worth going for timber frames with d/g units - seems silly not to..... Could always get more light in with some transparent box-section roofing sheets, I suppose....

Many thanks Adrian

[Brian Sharrock]

Huge snip ...

Have you considered asking Cherie Blair (nee Booth) for her father's opinion of moving to Ireland? From 'meedja' reports; he's not too chuffed and is attempting to sell his renovated Irish property and return to the England which he so famously exited. I'm sure a letter addressed to Mr Booth c/o 10 Downing Street would reach him. {God alone knows what the postage would be - hint: fold any large pieces of paper but not too thickly!)

[Grunff]

While concrete is always nice, I can't help feeling if you're going to insulate and board over it anyway that the concrete is somewhat wasted in this application. I would personally not bother with the concrete, and just go for a suspended insulated floor.

The cost difference between rough-sawn and t&g isn't *huge* when viewed as part of the overall project. I'd say the choice is more one of what you prefer to look at.

We've just used insulated box profile on a friend's shed/office building. It is *superb*. Doesn't need supporting on ply, the roof joists are sufficient. very quick and easy to use, and a nice steel + white plastic finish to the underside. Came from a company called Cladco:

Cladco-LJT North Rd Industrial Estate, Okehampton, Devon EX20 1BQ Tel: [phone]

I'm sure they'd be able to tell you if the product is distributed in the RoI.

Definitely.

[Andy Hall]

What I did was to lay the slab. Then pressure treated timbers (100mm) were laid on DPC material to isolate them from any moisture rising up (if any much). They are on 600mm centres and do not go to the edges of the slab - i.e. the ends end up about 50mm in at each end. 75mm pressure treated timbers used as joists were then laid perpendicular to these again with DPC material isolating them from the bottom layer. Noggins were inserted at intervals and further timber members across the ends to complete the floor frame. Smaller timber noggins of

25mm thick were then nailed in at the bottom of these joists making a 50mm space above to take 50mm Celotex.

I fitted the Celotex and then 18mm ply. This gives an area to work on which is useful. Then the wall framing can be made and erected on the base.

I then put in pieces of cedar all the way round at floor level. This started as 50mm^2 section and was machined with a slope on the top and bottom (effectively a rombus in cross section) and a drip groove underneath. For the space below, I cut more lengths of cedar (18mm thick) with a width such that the bottom ends up about 25mm above the concrete. This fits up underneath the first section and is sealed. The idea is that the timbers underneath remain pretty much dry, even in driving rain and any water running down drips off. The walls can be completed according to preference.

I used ply and then emulsioned that in white to reflect max light. I am not sure that foil will emulsion that well. It might.

God's own country...

Yes, if you go to a timber yard that does it. Otherwise Sadolin is your friend. Ideally, it's better to get it sawn rather than planed because the preservative is absorbed better.

There is always Ebay, but I tend to use mine quite regularly for outside type stuff.

Even if you don't do that, it's very well worthwhile getting a smaller one for doing the cladding. That will save an enormous amount of time. If you haven't got one, a chop saw is another real time saver. Both of these would find plenty of use later.

Yes and you can build the framing to accept standard sized windows.

For s studio type set up, definitely.

[Andy Hall]

Definitely. Tony would read it. (Think about that one)

[Adrian]

Sounds good - thanks

I wasn't sure.... Ply's easy to work with....

Odd that - somebody else said that to me. Now, as a Cornishman, we tend to reserve that expression for referring to that bit West of the Tamar.... but I'm prepared to concede the point

Yes - takes forever to get the treatment on, though.....

Don't know anything about nailers - I'd have though a smaller one would do fine - after all, there's many more little nails than big ones in this sort of project...

Got a chop saw already. Nothing fancy - but it's great for getting square cuts on the end of 4 x 2's, and nice square cuts on boarding.. Mine chops and slides - best of both worlds...

Easier at the planning stage...

Yep !

Thanks again Adrian

[Adrian]

Ouch ! - eyes watering

Excellent - the value of my new house just went up !

Not going there....

Regards Adrian

[Adrian]

Hmmm - not sure..... If the suspended floor is going to need some kind of concrete block bearers on mortar then you're already mixing concrete...... after that it's just a matter of scale !

Good point..... Trouble I've always had with rough-sawn is that it tends to 'move' rather once it's been fixed - so you end up staining it twice - and it does tend to try to bow as well. A T&G solution would (perhaps) be more watertight..?.

Excellent - that's what I needed to know. I used some recycled box section on my current garage & workshop - very quick & easy - but the 'all=in=one' solution attracts me (I'm a lazy blighter !)

I know nothing about nailguns. Presumably a 'little-un' which would do the 'cladding' would be more useful than a 'big-un' that would fire 6" nails into the framework (sounds scary !)

Do these things work off comp-air, or what ??

Thanks Adrian

[Autolycus]

The insulated stuff gets fairly expensive - think at least 30gbp/m^2, but it, or the cheaper non-insulated box section steel sheet, does lend itself to simple roof structures. If you could get away with a monopitch roof, 4ft higher at the front than back, the roof structure need be little more than something like 8x2 timbers spanning your 4m dimension at say 4-6ft centres. Do your own sums to verify these figures. You'd have end laps in the sheets, though, which would need sealing, so you might prefer to pitch the roof the other way, at the expense of a more complex supporting structure.

Have to disagree there: the condensation problems will be dreadful, unless you go for the relatively uncommon translucent panels which have an inner grp skin. These look OK when new, but soon seem to look grubby. Multiwall polycarbonate would perhaps be OK, but isn't so easy to interface to the steel.

[Adrian]

I've got no idea of costs at the moment.... might end up with a felt roof once I've discovered what the steel costs !

The cellar conversion had a professionally felted roof with a 4ft square skylight assembly - very nice - but the skylight cost about £500....

True....... maybe we're back to windows again..... at least that way you've got some level of integrity in the roofing.....

Thanks Adrian

[Grunff]

Indeed - a couple of orders of magnitude :-)

T&G would be more watertight, yes. If you go for pressure treated, staining becomes optional - you could simply let the timber weather to a nice silvery colour, and apply a treatment every 10 years or so.

They come in all shapes and sizes. If you just want to use it for cladding and other non-framing work, then a finish nailer may be your best option:

Do these things work off comp-air, or what ??

You can get mains, rechargeable, air and explosive(!) powered ones. If you already have a compressor, air is the one to go for.

[Adrian]

Or a readymix lorry......

That's a thought.....

I don't - but I think I know a man who does

More toys !

Thanks Adrian

[Andy Hall]

Compressed air one.

For the cladding, a 15 gauge one would be appropriate. These will put in nails up to about 50mm or so. Don't go for an 18 ga. brad nailer - too small

You know it makes sense.

[John Rumm]

The nail gun FAQ may help:

[Adrian]

Adrian

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "Brian Sharrock" saying something like:

Fuck 'im. Glad to see the back of the gobshite.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Grunff saying something like:

I agree, it's excellent stuff. Not just their product though, it's also made in Ireland.

Adrian, you can get a copy of 'Buy and Sell' in the local newsagent - it's much like Loot. You'll often find insulated panel seconds very cheaply.

Also online -

[Adrian]

Now that's useful information ! Thanks

...just got to get some sense out of eircom now - started the 'new phone line installation' process three months ago - now some 'customer service' bod wants to install it in 3 months time - trouble is we're moving in in 2 weeks !

Regards Adrian