I think that the IMHO might be the interpretation thats to say its a bit open to just that!...
He was quite adamant that this and other things could be done and has been involved in the industry a very long time....
In article , Robin scribeth thus
Yes suppose thats why we have lawyers and judges;!..
Some boilers you can change the PCB and some other parts without opening the combustion area covers. Like say that "best of breed" the Suprima 80 series..;!!...
Yes daft isn't it?, and it makes me wonder why they don't change silly buggers things like that makes the CAA look stupid ....
I'm 99.5% sure he's wrong. If you fitted a new but defective PCB that, say, didn't use adequate air, emitted soot (clogging up the burner and causing further, later problems), how would Mr Average know?
A Gas Safe type should know how to test it and would have a FGA to do so.
There are lots of similar cases.
Landlords may not work on gas appliances in their rented accomodation. They are not competent.
What happens if a Gas Safe fitter is also a landlord?
You have admirably demonstrated that entirely incompetent work leading to a death is worthy of a manslaughter charge and significant prison sentence. Well done!
While some articles might also mention they were not Gas Safe registered, they were never charged for working on gas as a Landlord and each plead guilty to two counts of manslaughter. There were no other charges. I might add that Barry Stone was "working" and "employed" and therefore may have been breaking the law but this was fact was never brought to court.
If you read the articles, you will perhaps understand the gross incompetence in the work done, and why incompetent people should stay away from working with gas.
This case goes to prove it is competence that matters, and not in itself working on a gas appliance as a landlord. Whilst undesirable it is not against the law. It does shows the law should perhaps be changed to include Carbon Monoxide detectors should be mandatory in any room where gas, wood or coal is burned. I personally know of two people who have suffered the effects of CO, and so don't underestimate the significance of CO poisoning.
Again, I asked you to name a case or a landlord for working on gas and prosecuted for carrying out that work, not for gross incompetence and stupidity and resulting death, which anyone working on gas would suffer, registered or otherwise. You have failed, because there have been no such prosecutions.
You've hit the nail on the head. To work on gas you have to be competent.
To get paid for working on gas you also have to be a member of an approved body.
Did you miss this bit?
"Further chargers faced by both men, relating to fitting gas fires when not registered with Gas Safe, fitting a dangerous fire and installing an unsuitable fire, were ordered to lie on their files."
Charged with not being registered; that is being employed or self-employed and working on gas without Corgi registration.
They pleaded guilty to manslaughter, so the prosecution didn't waste the courts time in prosecuting those charges.
Presumably they'd pleaded innocent to those; the CPS & HSE thought they'd get a conviction or they wouldn't have brought those charges before the court.
You're just coming across as morbidly stupid now Fred, with a obsessive compulsive inability to admit your mistake.
I don't care what you think. I'm right. You're wrong. Deal with it.
What bit did you hear that they weren't prosecuted did you not understand?
Money changed hand, which mean they fell foul of the law, in terms of employer and employee. If a lone landlord had done the work, or someone else gratis, no prosecution would ever have been successful.
The law, as admirably demonstrated above, is as clear as mud, and once again you have not given any cases where a landlord, who has carried out gas work competently is against the law and has even been prosecuted.
Until there is such a prosecution, and with a law enacted some 15 years ago, it is right to assume that that competent work carried out by a landlord is within the 1998 act.
Live with facts and not opinions.
Depends on what sort of property it is and where it is :) Given the prices in London I suspect a lot of gas fitters own houses - or chateaux - in France, Switzerland, etc :((
But in E&W I'd guess:
I've got two different boilers at two different properties, and the PCBs of neither of them do any of those things! Both are simple sequencers which switch on the fan, check for pressure, switch on the pilot valve and spark, and check for a flame and finally switch on the main gas valve. They either work or they don't. I don't see how fitting them incorrectly could result in incorrect combustion. On one of them (Baxi Solo MkI) all the connections are via a multi-pin plug - so you remove the plug from the old board, replace the board and connect the plug. The other one (Glow-worm) requires a bit more skill since it has fly-leads which have to be connected to the right places. But all the wires are colour coded, so it's pretty simple!
Maybe newer-fangled boilers are different?!
I've no idea what particular PCB boards do. Most modulating boilers have the gas mixture controlled by the PCB.
I'm fairly certain that both Gas Safe and the HSE would take the line that you're not an approved person and shouldn't touch it. They'd only find out if it went horribly wrong.
My search of the HSE site left me quite surprised by the number of landlords they had prosecuted for gas offences.
One was convicted for a CO death caused by a defective gas fire the deceased tenant had installed (or so the landlord said). He didn't have an inventory with annual tests for the gas appliances he did have, so was convicted.
It works fine with the case removed, but it does mean that its consuming room air for combustion and then ejecting it out of the flue.
Time will tell... its about a year old now, and performing flawlessly so far. Very good at this time of year with the weather compensation doing its stuff. The house stays a nice comfortable temperature with the heating just ticking over in the background with flow temperatures in the 40s
Designed for ease of PCB changes perhaps ;-)
You seem to be talking at crossed purposes...
Are you aware of any prosecutions of landlords for doing gas work where there was no negative outcome, where it was done to satisfactory standard, and where the appropriate annual certificates were obtained from a professional fitter?
This is a very different situation from one where someone dies as a result of a faulty appliance etc, and the landlord had some direct involvement or had failed to have adequate checks carried out.
There is a fair chance that its never happened. As with most of these cases it would never come to light unless something newsworthy happened. Much the same as there have been no prosecutions simply for procedural failures to comply with part P. If for no other reason they are not in the financial interest of those tasked with policing the system.
I think in this case you are ignoring the relevant section of the legislation. If you read just section 3 of the GSIU act, you could be forgiven for reaching that conclusion. However there is a substantial extra part of the legislation (section 36) that is targeted specifically at landlords, and it is far less open to interpretation.
You can read through the whole section here:
In particular note:
"(4) Every landlord shall ensure that any work in relation to a relevant gas fitting or any check of a gas appliance or flue carried out pursuant to paragraphs (2) or (3) above is carried out by, or by an employee of, a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of regulation 3(3) of these Regulations. "
The only scope that leaves for a landlord to do his own work would either be if he is a gassafe member himself, or working under direct supervision of one.
No. It would only register on the HSE's radar if there had been some complaint about an infringement of the regulations. There were prosecutions where the landlord had been requested by a local authority to get the annual tests carried out, but had failed to do so. The HSE seem to prosecute a lot of dodgy landlords, you may find something if you search their press reports in the link above.
As you say, 'landlords doing gas work' is specifically prohibited unless they have Gas Safe accreditation.
Landlords doing gas work competently and getting caught is still illegal but just unlikely.
Neither of my boilers modulates. They are either on or off! I've no idea whether HSE would regard changing one of my boards as requiring an "approved person". As you say, they would only find out if it went horribly wrong! Geoff (whom we haven't seen here recently!) would lose a lot of business if he couldn't supply reconditioned PCBs to DIY-ers!
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.