Some time back a number of people were installing Sauter valves on their CH systems. I am looking initially at the BXL valve body and the AXCM 117 230v actuator. Anyone find the best/cheapest dealer to buy from for one off sales?
I bought a number of the motorised actuators a few years ago and shopped around for the best price then. That came from Controls Center (i.e. the specialised controls operation of Wolseley).
I am not sure that Controls Center exists as a separate operation any longer. Possibly it has been consolidated with Plumb Center.
Do you mean AXCM 117? I can't see such a part number on their site.
The AXM series is the normal motorised drive in two versions:
- AXM117F series - fixed positions
- AXM117S series - continuous using a dc control signal.
It looks as though the F series has a 230v model.
Here is the actuator. AXM 117 F200, 230v modulating actuator (230v one way,
230v the other way) - fixed positions until the controller decides to nudge it along one way or the other.
OK, so it was AXM. F series.
I had to call Controls Center (as it was), plus a few others. These were not stock items, but they came back with prices in an hour or so and had next day availability.
If you're hoping to achieve a form of "analogue" control with an F series, the results are not going to be all that good. I tried this as a first experiment. The problem is that the actuator is essentially dumb. It has no feedback mechanism and no self calibration. Therefore all you can do is to run the motor to an end stop and time how long it takes to reach the other end The trouble is that an external controller won't know this, so it has to be done visually and by listening to the actuator motor. I found that with nudging it backwards and forwards without going to the ends, the calibration was lost quite quickly, especially if the steps are small. It can be improved by running the valve to an end stop periodically and then going from there. Overall, it wasn't really satisfactory.
The S series doesn't give feedback to the controller either but does have self calibration. This means that the valve will open to a known position depending on applied control signal voltage. It does its own periodic recalibration and is consistent.
Nothing on any Wolsey sites either. I think the Climate Center will be the one.
I don't need feedback from the valve actuator. Just a simple 230v modulating actuator. It is for a weather compensated rad circuit. The compensator can switch the boiler burner (with in-built anti-cycle control) or pulse a modulating valve one way or the other + or -. No feedback from valve is needed as the valve position will be wherever it is positioned to maintain setpoint.
The rad circuit is taken off a thermal store. A Smart pump on the flow and TRVs all around.
Option 1. a 3-way domestic diverter valve - on/off not modulating. Drayton make one with an end switch for around £35-40. 3-way valve on the return. The compensator sense the return pipe as more stable temps on the return. If compensator says the return should say, be 35C, and it is above setpoint the 3-way valve is energised (by the compensator burner mode as it anti-cycle) and the heating circuit pumps on itself until cooler and below setpoint of 35C then the valve opens up again taking heat from a thermal store and allowing cooler water into the bottom of the store. Either full on or full off. Cheap and will work well enough. Maybe excessive wear on a domestic 3-way valve motor, but should be OK. 35C water is placed at the bottom of the thermal store to enhance condensing operation when the boiler fires up to reheat the store. Most of the time the water will be below 30C and the lower store temperature even cooler when DHW is draw off via a plate heat exchanger returning very cool water (15 to 25C) back to the lower part of the store. 70 to 80% of the latent heat is recovered when the boiler return temp is 30C, 50% at 35C.
Option 2. A 3-way modulating valve, then ensures the return temperature from the rads is accurate to what the compensator dictates by modulating the valve. This ensures most of the time a trickle of cool water into the bottom of the thermal store, maintaining thermal layering.
Condensing boiler efficiency is greatly raised and comfort conditions enhanced by a feed-forward control weather compensator. TRVs trim off locally.
If the Sauter 3-way valve and actuator are silly prices, I may go with the
3-way domestic diverter valve for ~£40.Domestic 3-way mid-position valves stall the motor when in mid-position. I could look at one of these to stall the motor at any position its travel. I haven't looked seriously at this yet.
Nothing on any Wolsey sites either. I think the Climate Center will be the one.
I don't need feedback from the valve actuator. Just a simple 230v modulating actuator. It is for a weather compensated rad circuit. The compensator can switch the boiler burner (with in-built anti-cycle control) or pulse a modulating valve one way or the other + or -. No feedback from valve is needed as the valve position will be wherever it is positioned to maintain setpoint.
The rad circuit is taken off a thermal store directly. Condensing boiler heats the store directly. A Smart pump on the flow and TRVs all around.
Option 1. a 3-way domestic diverter valve - on/off not modulating. Drayton make one with an end switch for around £35-40. 3-way valve on the return. The compensator sense the return pipe as more stable temps on the return. If compensator says the return should say, be 35C, and it is above setpoint the 3-way valve is energised (by the compensator burner mode as it anti-cycle) and the heating circuit pumps on itself until cooler and below setpoint of 35C then the valve opens up again taking heat from a thermal store and allowing cooler water into the bottom of the store. Either full on or full off. Cheap and will work well enough. Maybe excessive wear on a domestic 3-way valve motor, but should be OK. 35C water is placed at the bottom of the thermal store to enhance condensing operation when the boiler fires up to reheat the store. Most of the time the water will be below 30C and the lower store temperature even cooler when DHW is draw off via a plate heat exchanger returning very cool water (15 to 25C) back to the lower part of the store. 70 to 80% of the latent heat is recovered when the boiler return temp is 30C, 50% at 35C.
Option 2. A 3-way modulating valve, then ensures the return temperature from the rads is accurate to what the compensator dictates by modulating the valve. This ensures most of the time a trickle of cool water into the bottom of the thermal store, maintaining thermal layering.
Condensing boiler efficiency is greatly raised and comfort conditions enhanced by a feed-forward control weather compensator. TRVs trim off locally.
If the Sauter 3-way valve and actuator are silly prices, I may go with the
3-way domestic diverter valve for ~£40.Domestic 3-way mid-position valves stall the motor when in mid-position. I could look at one of these to stall the motor at any position its travel. I haven't looked seriously at this yet.
Could be - seems to be the closest.
One-off is likely to be more than that but it's worth asking.
Spartan or Sontay; neither of them do Sauter but I don'y know why you'd want Sauter specifically. Sontay do 3-port rotary shoe Siebe valves, but they've pasted their name over Siebe's on the on-line data sheets. Siebe valves are good.
3-point floating control is the way many commercial mixing valves work. The option is to have the control electronics in the controller and have a cheaper valve actuator or have a 0-10V output from the controller and an expensive actuator with the control electronics inside it.Forget 3-port mid-position valves; Sunvic do Mo-Mo valves that can be adapted for modulating mixing use; they used to do some relay device to adapt the standard valve. They've been having reliability issues with their relays though, allegedly.
Option 1 is bolleaux. If you want on-off, too hot/too cold control of the heating why not just do it with a thermostat. Diverter valve =3D 1 inlet, 2 outlets; I think you'd have to set that up as an injection valve, but I'm sure you know what you're doing. ;-) Option 2; sensible, conventional 3-port mixing. I have one as you describe with a Siebe mixing valve; very good, if I do say so myself. Option 3; variable speed injection mixing pump. No valve gland to wear out. Very reliable, if you know how to do it properly. There's a good article on the web, but ISTR you derided the author's technical competence the last time I mentioned him, so I won't offend you by giving the link here. Option 4 as 2 but injection mixing valve. The way I'd go if I ever do another one.
Spartan or Sontay; neither of them do Sauter but I don'y know why you'd want Sauter specifically. Sontay do 3-port rotary shoe Siebe valves, but they've pasted their name over Siebe's on the on-line data sheets. Siebe valves are good.
3-point floating control is the way many commercial mixing valves work. The option is to have the control electronics in the controller and have a cheaper valve actuator or have a 0-10V output from the controller and an expensive actuator with the control electronics inside it.Forget 3-port mid-position valves; Sunvic do Mo-Mo valves that can be adapted for modulating mixing use; they used to do some relay device to adapt the standard valve. They've been having reliability issues with their relays though, allegedly.
Spartan or Sontay; neither of them do Sauter but I don'y know why you'd want Sauter specifically. Sontay do 3-port rotary shoe Siebe valves, but they've pasted their name over Siebe's on the on-line data sheets. Siebe valves are good.
There you go, Drivel, you've learnt something from me. Strange that they do that, I can't see an advantage. I still go for the Siebe.
No, lad. All the secondary flow passes through a conventional 3-port mixing valve.
An injection mixing valve (or pump) only handles the primary flow going into the secondary variable-temperature circuit. If there's a big difference between Pri & Sec temperatures, the injection mixing valve will be smaller and cheaper.
The disadvantage is the mixed proportions will remain constant with a
3-port mixing valve, but with injection mixing, by injection valve or pump, the proportions and flow temperatures changes with the secondary flow rate, i.e., TRVs modulating.
There you go, Drivel, you've learnt something from me. Strange that they do that, I can't see an advantage. I still go for the Siebe.
No, lad. All the secondary flow passes through a conventional 3-port mixing valve.
An injection mixing valve (or pump) only handles the primary flow going into the secondary variable-temperature circuit. If there's a big difference between Pri & Sec temperatures, the injection mixing valve will be smaller and cheaper.
Wow! John Siegenthaler and the Yanks have just discovered thermal storage. A newer approach they say.
"Today, the North American hydronics industry is "rediscovering" the benefits of hydraulic separation combined with traditional header-type piping applied to multiload/multitemperature systems. (that means a thermal store) We're also learning this uses less componentry and lower pumping wattage relative to primary/secondary piping. As hardware and electricity prices continue to rise, it's likely these newer approaches will soon become the standard."
No, lad. All the secondary flow passes through a conventional 3-port mixing valve.
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