Rubber wiring not spotted during Survey

[Phil Bartlett]

Hi

A friend of mine moved into her first home 4 month ago. She brought it

50/50 with a housing assocation. She paid for the basic survey to be carried out and the result of the survey was that there was no problems with the house.

She has just had an electrian around to quote for installing some new wall sockets. While he was looking around he noticed that the wiring was rubber encased and he has advised her that a complete rewiring needs to be done on safetly gounds. Now this rubber wiring was not spotted by the basic survey and they didn't recommend for a electrical survey to be carried out before purchase.

My friend is now looking at a bill of several thousand pounds for this work to be carried out. Does she have any recourse to claim compensation from the surveyor, solicitors,housing assocation (who also had a survey carried out) or the previos home owner?

Pleas let me know your thoughts on this.....

Rgds

Phil

[Séan Connolly]

Basic as in valuation ?

[daddyfreddy]

The bog standard survey is just to cover the value of the house for the lender so I doubt she can do much about it.

It would also be useful to get a second opinion on the wiring as this guy may be talking crap to make a fast buck.

[Rob Morley]

Have a look at the wiring wherever you can get to it - if it's not cracked or crumbly I wouldn't worry about it too much. It might be a good idea to fit a consumer unit with an RCD and breakers, but someone with proper electrical knowledge might be along in a bit to tell us why that isn't a good idea.

[John Rumm]

Are we talking "valuation survey" here or "Home buyers report"? If the former (the cheapest survey) then the only thing that is being checked is that the interests of the mortgage company are looked after - i.e. if they foreclose they ought to get their money back.

Probably because the surveyor did not look.

If you are talking about a valuation survey, then absolutely none. If you are talking about a home buyers report, then probably none!

The home buyers report will typically include small print disclaiming responsibility for plumbing, electrics, dampness, rot etc, saying that if you are concerned about these things to consult a specialist to conduct a specific survey. All in all an arse covering exercise. It only requires a quick comment to say "wiring was not visible bla bla".

Let the buyer beware!

[Bob Watkinson]

Well yes it could reveal a whole can of worms if you do that. Unless the wiring is in tip top condition (unlikely due to the obvious age of the installation) then nuisance tripping is almost guaranteed if you can even get the RCD to hold in at all that is. I very much doubt the electrician was trying it on. Most electricians including myself would recommend a rewire immediately on finding rubber insulation even if the bits you can see look ok (you can't guarantee the bits you cant see are ok). Before doing any minor works to this installation a full periodic inspection should be carried out.

[Set Square]

Depends what the survey was for, and what it was designed to cover. Get her to read the small print - where she will almost certainly find the usual disclaimers!

As someone else has suggested, get a second opinion - preferably from someone who won't gain financially from any work carried out.

[zymurgy]

Basic/Valuation survey means thay could virtually just do a 'drive by' valuation.

I made this mistake when I found issues with my property after the 'basic' (i.e. cheap) survey.

Very false economy. Always pay for the full survey, it's peanuts compared to the purchase value, and you have more comeback when you find faults not uncovered by it.

Cheers

Paul.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'm afraid that's unlikely given it will be 40+ years old, and full inspection near impossible.

It will also not have earths on the lighting circuits and is likely to fall way short of what's needed in today's housing. As the OP has found after needing extra sockets fitted.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Even a full survey won't include electrics. It will simply say the same as any other - get it checked professionally.

[R. Mark Clayton]

That is up to the buyer.

Only the surveyor, and then unlkely (see below).

A consumer unit with RCD and MCB's is a very good idea.

Rubber wiring was installed until forty or fifty years ago. Unlike its earlier lead coated predecessor, it perishes along the whole cable and not just at the ends. By now I would have thought any rubber wiring would be in pretty poor condition and the risk is faults and fires. Whether a surveyor conducting a basic survey would or should check for this is not clear to me. He would have been mostly interested in structural condition and whether the valuation is in line with the price.

The next question is whether there are current accessories or do these need replacing as well, which will add to the cost.

In any event "several thousand pounds" is a grossly excessive estimate for a rewire, unless the house is a ten bedroom mansion.

PS PVC wiring installed since the 60's hardly deteriorates at all, oddly the original "Mackintosh" figure of 8 rubber wiring for lighting (installed ~100 years ago) also lasts pretty well, but has no earth. It is the rubber cables that look like PVC except close up that crumble.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Depends on the age of the house. Anything under 40 years old will have been wired to IEE Reg's Ed. 13+, and whilst 30-40yo houses may be short of sockets (but you can probably manage to count them), the wiring will still be in safe condition.

Remember to never split the infinitive WLSC

[Malcolm]

We paid for the building survey (£600 if I remember correctly) when we purchased out circa 1958 house. Like most houses of that ear it had rubber sheathed wiring, and several other electrical issues like earth bonding etc. Covering their backsides, the survey company recommended having the electrics tested, which we did, and the results that came back was astounding. The wiring was generally in good condition, and the insulation readings were very acceptable. However it was recommended that the house be re-wired given the fact that it "didn't meet current standards" ie no earth in the lighting etc.

We used to own a flat on a 50/50 basis with a housing association, and all structural things were the associations responsibility (buried pipes, electrics etc) - so you might get your friend to check with the association or the terms of the lease as they may cover or split the cost of the re-wire.

Given the fact that the government are introducing these new buyers pack in 2007, I would assume that a lot of housing associations are facing huge bills to be able to provide the required certificates on the heating and electrics etc.. so they will have to do it sooner or later.

Malcolm

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[zymurgy]

Some structural flaws were missed on my basic survey which could have been costly to rectify (However I rolled them in to some other works I had done). The 1950's wiring was the least of my worries.

Expensive lesson learnt ..

P.

[Richard Faulkner]

In message , Phil Bartlett writes

Cost to rewire a typical 3 bed semi - around £1,000 - £1,500, not several thousand pounds. Get a few quotes.

Almost certainly none of them, or anyone.

[Bob Watkinson]

No competent electrician would ever do this. First he would test the installation, inevitably condem it and so would not modify it or add to it in any way. To do so would leave him liable to manslaughter charges if somebody was killed.

[Peter Crosland]

Such a survey was probably just a valuation and would not cover details like the wiring. She has no real chance of claiming from anybody.

A full rewire should not cost as much as you suggest and in any case the housing association would be liable for half the costs. Now that she knows the wiring is in a bad state she has an obligation to inform here building insurers who will almost certainly insist on it being rewired. Her best course is to discuss it with the co-owner and agree a course of action. She will probably be able to get an increased mortgage to cover the cost.

Peter Crosland

[Will Dean]

I'm sure.

Can you cite a case like this? (A genuine question, not a veiled way of disputing the claim, though I am sceptical)

Will

[Bob Watkinson]

I'm not a lawyer I'm a mere sparkie but I know if I kill somebody through my negligence I'm going down mate. To add to an installation that is tested and proves to be unsound as this one almost certainly is,is negligent practice.

>

[Will Dean]

Sure it's negligent. Getting from negligence to manslaughter is a hell of a step, though.

Upgrading one part of an installation but not another is crap work, dangerous, bad, etc. No dispute.

But....

At the moment I seem to be surrounded by people who make up rules, regulations, laws, bans, etc, apprently largely so that they can claim to be suffering under a terrible burden of rules, regulations, etc. It's therefore become almost a reflex response to challenge people to cite law or cases when making extravagant-sounding claims of this type.

It does seem a bit sad that 'someone might get killed' is not seen to be as emphatic a warning as 'you might get convicted of manslaughter'.

Will