Rewiring and the dreaded "Part P"

[Dark Angel]

A friend of mine desperately needs his house rewiring, but cannot afford to hire a professional electrician so has asked me to help as I have studied electrics at nightschool.

Now, I understand that if you're doing the job yourself you are supposed to get the councils building control section to come check your wiring prior to the final connection, however this is going to be practicaly impossible as we're going to be doing this at weekends and probably doing a room at a time.

With the exception of the kitchen, which was newly installed prior to him moving in, everything else needs replacing, including a new fuse box, which is "do-able" as theres a switch between the meter and the fuse box.

However, never having had to get the council involved before I'm not quite sure the correct order of doing things.

Do we just rewire and replace everything then call the council in, or do we have to contact them first then have them come check it at the end, or do we have to keep calling them back each time we connect a new circuit?

I'd be greatful for any pointers.

TIA

[John Rumm]

From what various people have said it seems each local authority is a law unto themselves in this respect.

The way it ought to work, is that you submit a building notice, for which there is a charge. The charge should be based on the commercial value of the work being carried out. The council should not charge more because it is an electrical job. They will then specify what inspections they (or their subcontractors) want to carry out. If they want a formal test at the end of it, it is their responsibility to do this and pay for it.

That's the theory. The practice varies wildly. Some will refuse to do or organise the inspection work, and will expect you to pay for your own contractor to do this. This is in contravention to the approved document and explicit instructions from the relevant government departments but they seem to care not. (you can sympathise with their position - this is well outside the skill sets of most BCOs, and they would have to pay a sub contractor significantly more than the building notice fee to have an inspection and test done)

The best line of attack would hence be phone your local building control department (most are very helpful), explain what you want to do, and ask them how they work it. If they want to charge extra, remind them of paragraph 1.26 in part P :

see what they say. If they still won't budge then its your call.

If you do it without involving the LA, then the sky is unlikely to fall in, although you may get asked questions when you sell the place. (however based on recent experience, conveyancing solicitors seem to have lost interest in it already).

[Dark Angel]

words.

If it was my own house I'd probably just do it anyway and not bother, but with it being someone elses I don't want to make myself liable for anything in the unlikely event that something should go wrong.

[Rumble]

I would have thought that compliance with part p is irrelevant to the issue of your personal liability. You will be liable unless you have a clear understanding with your friend that he is "doing" the rewire and you are merely "helping" him as a friend (and you'd better not be taking any money either).

Even then, if (as a result of your supposed negligence) something goes drastically wrong and someone gets injured or dies (even some time after the installation is done and dusted), you may well find yourself on the end of a lawsuit. In this respect, either you have appropriate liability insurance or you don't...

[nice1]

Hi,

Just a thought, why don't you do all the rewiring your self (making sure its done properly) but leave the fuse box,

then get a professional electrician to replace the fuse box with a new consumer unit, but don't tell him you did the rewiring your self,

he will have to do a complete test on the whole house to make sure everything is ok be for he gives you a certificate,

as i understand it will cost you about £250 to get council involved so you might as well do it as above which will be less hassle i think.

Thoughts anyone?

[ARWadsworth]

I would charge more than £250 for a CU swap and test.

Adam

[Lobster]

Well, if the OP's going to go down that route, rightly or wrongly, he may as well do the whole lot, including the consumer unit, and then get the pro in to test the whole lot and tell him exactly what's been done... the net result will be the same - a Periodic Inspection Report (which isn't the same as having the whole job completed under Part P).

David

[Andrew Gabriel]

It might be useful to say which LA, as someone here may already know what their stance is. I was chatting to some other deligates after a conference this week (which was nothing to do with DIY or electrical work). The subject of Part P came up. The guy had wandered in to his LA BCO department for a chat. The BCO said he liked it when people did that, because he then could unofficially suggest they ignore Part P, avoiding a load of agro on both sides. Sorry, no idea which LA that was though.

Part of the problem is the aparent gold plating of the rules. All that was originally expected was that the BCO would glance at the installation to ensure looked like it was done to a reasonable standard, like they do for many of the other areas they inspect. It was never expected that full testing by qualified engineers was required as part of the BC approval -- the LA's have dug this hole for themselves, it's not part of Part P.

State here which LA first -- someone with experience of dealing with them may be able to comment.

[Andy Hall]

All of them, probably.

As we figured out a while ago, the intent was always that this would be a self certifying game by NICEIC and similar contractors, not that building control would get involved in the technicalities.

Like EU Directives. The government is good at gold plating

Although how would they be able to determine parameters such as continuity and impedance measurements which require a) the understanding and b) the test gear? It takes them into an area of skill and knowledge that most won't have.

[Andrew May]

But they don't in other areas which they inspect. If they call to inspect my new foundations they don't test the concrete to check that it is the right mix and able to withstand the loads. They take a look and say - that looks OK keep going. Why should electrics be any different?

What might be a good idea is for someone submitting the building application to provide appropriate calculations to show that they have thought about the design of the installation - in much the same way that a structural engineer does for things like RSJs.

Andrew

[Frank Erskine]

I'm pretty sure that every local authority must have an electrical engineer in its employ, even if he is in a different department.

[Andy Hall]

Are they trained or do they have the experience to know whether something "looking OK" actually is OK?

It would be possible to have a set of wiring neatly clipped and looking the part, while actually being wrong and unsafe - e.g. missing earthing, wrong sized cable for application etc.etc.etc.

Equally, it would be possible to have wiring that is technically completely correct and to a good standard but not looking cosmetically as good.

A cursory glance would choose the wrong installation as OK.

That still assumes that the reader understands what he is seeing. Without the training and background, he wouldn't/

All of this misses what the main point of the legislation was. That was to attempt to bring more electrical contractors within the tax system. It was never anticipated that there would be any significant amount of work done via the use of a building notice as opposed to self certification by contractors.

[Andy Hall]

There's a problem right there. Someone else's resource and probably another union.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I've seen no evidence that any such additional checking is required in a domestic environment. Most of the danger from domestic wiring installations comes from old installations which people haven't touched for years, not from newly installed parts of installations, even when not installed strictly according to the regs. In the majority of cases of modified wiring which hasn't been tested, it's unlikely to be any worse than it was before, and it is likely to be better that anything ancient it replaced.

[Frank Erskine]

Simple. Vary his terms of contract to confirm that he works for Xxx Council rather than, say, Xxx Council's Streetlighting department or whatever. He will probably be happy to have a bit more variety of work and will then perhaps be employed full-time rather than merely being paid full-time.

(As it happens, our streetlight management is 'outsourced', but you know what I mean.)

[nafuk]

I would go this route but make sure you install to the guidelines of the "Onsite Guide", which is a kind or abbreviated form of the 16th (or 17th now) installation regs. These include:

1=2E making sure that wiring going through joists is installed 2" below the top of the joist. 2=2E that the sockets on a ring circuit are evenly ditributed and not all bunched up at one end. 3=2E that any one ring circuit only serves an area of 100 m2 or less (not sure of area) 4=2E

Please can people check these and add their own to the list to help Simon

[Andrew May]

But that is no different from the situation with, say, foundations. A trench might be nice and neat but it may be filled with the wrong type of concrete or it might be a complete mess but perfectly adequate structurally.

I would hazard a guess that 99 times out of a hundred if a diyer has the inclination to produce a neat looking job then they also have the inclination to make sure it follows the regs.

Which is exactly the same situation as with the requirements for loading calculations for RSJs.

Now on that, I totally agree with you.

Andrew

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Fit a new CU and test for 250 quid?

[Owain]

Can't vary a contract term without agreement of the employee, and for a LA that will have to go past The Unions. He will probably want Re-Grading and an Additional Responsibility Allowance for visiting people's houses, and he will also have to go on training courses on Dealing With The Public, Wiping Boots On The Doormat, and Tact And Diplomacy When Commenting On People's Tasteless Decorating Decisions.

Can't see many council employees being very happy with either. I might be having to take a job with the council and am dreading it.

Owain

[Martin Carroll]

On a recent renovation I completely rewired the house. The BCO came out to inspect the first fix (i.e. came in through the front door, had a cursory glance around and then left).

The work was certified by an electrician who provided a Periodic Inspection Report. When the BCO came around to check this he didn't think that this was enough until I pointed him at their own documentation which stated that this was the correct procedure.

Martin