req adv: handheld dsl line tester

[tg]

I work in computer repairs doing onsite visits and I'm getting an increasing number of homes lately with what appears to be a faulty phone line on the broadband. I'm trying to locate a handheld tester that will test the dsl line and give me accurate readings of the status of the line. Plugging a modem or a router in and waiting for the flashing light to stop isn't good enough for my needs. I'm looking for a device to test the dsl signal on a professional level. Thanks for any advice.

[Colin Forrester]

number of homes lately with what appears to be a

that will test the dsl line and give me accurate

waiting for the flashing light to stop isn't good enough

professional level. Thanks for any advice.

Me too - although I now always carry a Draytek router to problem sites - the DSL status information and spectrum analysis feature are very useful. Just not portable enough.

In Paris last year I was able to convince the Frane Telecom engineer that because the bottom of the status window was not green (it shows red when no DSL is present) that FT hadn't provisioned DSL on the line. He spoke to his controller, assured him/her that the English engineer had a special tester and no DSL had been provisioned and while we had a coffee FT fixed the problem and it went green.

[Clint Sharp]

In message , tg writes

Don't the BT engineers use a Voyager USB modem for the 'whoosh' test?

You could try

I suspect it's going to be way outside your price bracket.

[kráftéé]

The Openreach engineers use a Voyager 105 USB modem along with some in house software, the Whoosh Test is still available but it is not accurate, especially on longer lines....

All hand held testers are even to exspensive for BT/Openreach to consider seriously

[tg]

number of homes lately with what appears to be a

that will test the dsl line and give me accurate

waiting for the flashing light to stop isn't good enough

professional level. Thanks for any advice.

DSL status information and spectrum analysis feature

which exact model draytek do you use?

[tg]

writes

number of homes lately with what appears to be a

that will test the dsl line and give me accurate

waiting for the flashing light to stop isn't good enough

thanks for the advice, I've sent an e-mail to sunrisetelecom. For some reason they won't give out the price of their gear at their site, (wierd).

[Pier Danone]

BT use Presto

due to the cost, there is usually only one per exchange and they are only used to check the line within the exchange.

Outside of this BT engineers use cheapo modems and poor inhouse software.

In all honesty, no matter how good a tester you have, it tends to be either go or no go and nothing more than a basic modem is really required to test it from an 'outsiders' point of view. As yourself these 2 questions:

1) Even if your tester will work and say all is fine, if you walk away leaving the customers kit not working do you think you will get paid?

2) Even if you identify errors on a really amazing tester or network/protocol analyzer, do you think you will find anyone to come out and say 'You clever engineer! Thanks for pointing out the minor errors on our aging copper network. We will get a team of engineers to renew the 7 miles of cable at once so your tester is satisfied'

It all depends if you are interested in fixing the customers issues or looking cool and like you know what you are doing because you have a complex tester. Don't take that the wrong way I am not flaming you, it's just you come across people who need such comfort toys to cover their doubt. The crux of it is, no matter what you identify to be wrong, from the customers point of view it either works or it does not work, and no amount of begging Openreach will have them chasing faults that are not obvious to an engineer with a meter!

[Colin Forrester]

number of homes lately with what appears to be a

that will test the dsl line and give me accurate

waiting for the flashing light to stop isn't good enough

professional level. Thanks for any advice.

DSL status information and spectrum analysis feature

An older 2600we model for this purpose. You should be able to get one second hand for less than about £75.00.

[PeterD]

So what do you do when the ISP says the line *is* enabled, but every piece of equipment you try on the line be it router or USB modem can't get a connection? If you're prepared to sit on an 0870 number for an hour or so then you get to talk to someone with a script who just runs you through installing their Speedtouch software again, even though you tell them you've installed plenty of ADSL modems, and routers that don't need drivers installed and their crappy software configured. Support people don't seem to understand routers and ethernet, only USB with its inherent problems.

If you can't get any negotiation, there's no way of knowing whether there is actually an ADSL signal on the line but it's so lost in the noise that nothing can connect, or whether they've enabled the wrong line, or not enabled anything at all despite their records showing they have. That's when some kind of testing device would be useful, and it's happening more and more as the maximum distance from the exchange is increased with improvements in the technology.

[kráftéé]

> But due to the cost, there is usually only one per exchange and they

Beg to differ Pier, some of the exchanges around here have not got a Presto & they still have to resort to using the old test router (via the harwired test circuit)in order to do any test at all

[kráftéé]

That's when you get the ISP to get a Openreach engineer to site, or are you going to climb poles, go into joints or cabs, to try & get them working. If there is no signal, even your expensive handheld tester will do you little good.

The only thing I would suggest is if you have that problem & you aren't willing to try to get the ISP to escallate is use a USB modem on your laptop & get your customer to turn off all electrical supplies (via the consumer unit). If the modem suddenly burst into life you will know that there is a piece of equipment on site causing a problem. If, on the other hand, it doesn't you wont have lost anything, but you will have covered another possible cause of the problem.

[tg]

"kráftéé" > noise that nothing can connect, or whether they've enabled the wrong

going to climb poles, go into joints or cabs, to try

tester will do you little good.

have you ever tried getting to the point where you can get an Openreach engineer to the site? You speak as though this is an easy thing. It certainly is not.

[tg]

> But due to the cost, there is usually only one per exchange and they are only

the difference between an amateur and a professional is attention to detail. I want to be as professional as possible in my work and be sure about the line I'm investigating. An amateur will stand there scratching his head, staring at the blinking modem light and waiting on the helpline but a professional will produce the tools needed to get to the bottom of the problem. To answer your question: if I can positively ascertain that the customers line is not up to scratch then yes the customer will pay me for my time. To answer your question: if I can positively ascertain the customers line is faulty I will communcate that to the 'isp support staff' and I will be a position not to take any crap from them. I am interested in fixing the customers issues effectively and with certainty. I am not interested in cheap alternatives, getting by with this or that, and yes I do find comfort in having high quality testers and tools at my disposal. There's nothing wrong in that.

[m]

Very useful things manual testers though kraftee.

When I was working in the main HQ of a certain radio broadcaster some considerable time ago, I made friends with the local jippy joe engineers who used to maintain the PBX in those days (we used to test out the lines provided for us).

As I wanted to get tickets for radio shows and the relevant extension was always engaged, one just borrowed the tester and intercepted the line to get priority!!

Mike

[m]

I have been doing similar with a 2600WE - worth keeping one just for the spectrum analyser.

Anyone know if any other ADSL modems have similar function?

I would't mind getting one as tester to save having to re-engineer the home network to USB/ICS when I go out top do a job.

Mike

[Ian White]

That really is the problem - whether or not you can get negotiation.

If you can, then even a low-cost router such as the Netgear DG834G can be used to report link statistics including upstream and downstream line attenuations and noise margins. I suspect that these 'analogue' results in dB are actually being calculated from the throughput statistics, as distinct from being measured in the true analogue domain. If so, it's just another bit of firmware, and can be thrown in almost for free.

But if you can't get any negotiation, then all the measurements would have to be made in the true analogue domain, and from only one end of the line. That would require a very specialised piece of testgear - which is hardly justifiable since, as PeterD says, the most likely reason for total failure is that BTO haven't enabled the line at all.

FWIW, the Netgear DG834G has proved very useful here, at the end of an

8km line which is currently running at about 5 faults per year. The noise margin stats are useful for performance checking while the link is up (eg monitoring slow daily 'fades' that are probably due to cycling of the temperature and/or humidity) and there is also a facility to log major 'events' such as up and down times.

[tony sayer]

In article , m writes

If your after a Draytek this lot do them at a very competitive price as well as other network related bits, and very good service they offer too:))

Very good units.. got around 10 of them here and there:!.

[Clint Sharp]

In message , tg writes

No, I disagree, the difference between an amateur and a professional is the professional's ability to solve a problem with the minimum of downtime and fuss using his knowledge and experience. No amount of shiny pebble testers will make you into a professional. Ask yourself this;

What do the professionals use to diagnose a line problem?

You've already been told the answer by one professional yet you seem determined to spend lots of money on unnecessary toys because you need a comfort blanket. If you really want to buy the tester, go ahead, I'm sure your customer's will appreciate it, especially when they work out that the cost goes on their bill.

You're right, a professional will have a laptop and a known good modem.

And you really expect them to pay more attention because you (allegedly) have an expensive toy? Here's a clue, they won't care. If you can test back to the BT test socket with a known good modem as well as the ISP/User supplied one, that's good enough. I've never had a problem convincing an ISP that it was a line problem with these simple tests. I've worked on leased line, SHDSL, ISDN, POTS connected sites for business, ISDN, POTS and (R)ADSL for home users and never needed anything more than a spare modem/TA etc. where appropriate (I.E., where I'm allowed to change them) to convince someone of a line problem.

[Pier Danone]

"kráftéé" > increasing | > number of homes lately with what appears to be a | >> faulty phone line on the broadband. I'm trying to locate a handheld | >> tester | > that will test the dsl line and give me accurate | >> readings of the status of the line. Plugging a modem or a router in | >> and | > waiting for the flashing light to stop isn't good enough | >> for my needs. I'm looking for a device to test the dsl signal on a | > professional level. Thanks for any advice. | >

| > BT use Presto | >

| >

| > But due to the cost, there is usually only one per exchange and they | > are only used to check the line within the exchange. | | Beg to differ Pier, some of the exchanges around here have not got a | Presto & they still have to resort to using the old test router (via | the harwired test circuit)in order to do any test at all |

Ditto round here, I was saving that little gem for the comeback, you rotten bugger!!! Spoiled my fun you have.

It's funny that even BTO feel all you need is a modem/router to prove service but it is.

Years ago I worked on transport refrigeration stuff. Complex crap that was a mixture of 415 volt and 12/24v and mechanics too boot. The company took on an ex-supermarket electrician/engineer and we went out on a fault together, really for him to get a little exposure. First fault was a unit that would not start. (Engine on generator would not turn over). The guy got out his two hundred quid fluke tester and started looking for

12v on the starter solenoid terminal. Sure enough, there was 12v on his meter that dropped down to 2v when you tried to crank the thing over. He surmised that the starter must be at fault as it was drawing a massive current when you tried to crank it. I got out an old test lamp made with two bits of wire and clips with a tail lamp bulb as the indicator. When you stuck it on the terminal it struggled to light up, and this was without trying to crank the engine over. A wobble of the solenoid wire on the started would make the lamp glow fine. So I looked closely and wobbled the solenoid wire a little more. The crimped end fell off. The connection was 'HR' if you like and giving out when it tried to pass current. Now the expensive meter was not able to spot this simple, inexpensive fault. I won't preach the moral of the story. Just forget the comfort toys. All you need is an elcheapo modem or router plugged into the master test jack. If it won't sync up there, you are not going to be climbing poles and jumping in footway boxes just like kraftee said.

The process to get a BB BTO engineer out remains the same as it always has. You report the fault to the ISP. Depending on the quality of the ISP and your ability to convince them of the fault will determine your success. Failing that you can call BTO direct where a non BB BTO will attend, listen to your concerns and problems, tell you to tell someone that gives a shit and to follow the correct process. You will then be billed, the charge added to your phone bill. You can then ring and contest it. You will be told that you have not followed the correct process and the charge stands. If you don't pay it, being part of your phone bill, you get cut off. This is when you find out the true quality of your ISP. The process is the process. You can't blame BTO for it.

[Pier Danone]

| > BT use Presto | >

| >

| > But due to the cost, there is usually only one per exchange and they are only | > used to check the line within the exchange. | >

| > Outside of this BT engineers use cheapo modems and poor inhouse software. | >

| > In all honesty, no matter how good a tester you have, it tends to be either go | > or no go and nothing more than a basic modem is really required to test it from | > an 'outsiders' point of view. As yourself these 2 questions: | >

| > 1) Even if your tester will work and say all is fine, if you walk away leaving | > the customers kit not working do you think you will get paid? | >

| > 2) Even if you identify errors on a really amazing tester or network/protocol | > analyzer, do you think you will find anyone to come out and say 'You clever | > engineer! Thanks for pointing out the minor errors on our aging copper network. | > We will get a team of engineers to renew the 7 miles of cable at once so your | > tester is satisfied' | >

| > It all depends if you are interested in fixing the customers issues or looking | > cool and like you know what you are doing because you have a complex tester. | > Don't take that the wrong way I am not flaming you, it's just you come across | > people who need such comfort toys to cover their doubt. The crux of it is, no | > matter what you identify to be wrong, from the customers point of view it either | > works or it does not work, and no amount of begging Openreach will have them | > chasing faults that are not obvious to an engineer with a meter! | >

| no I disagree. | the difference between an amateur and a professional is attention to detail. I want to be as professional as possible in my work | and be sure about the line I'm investigating. An amateur will stand there scratching his head, staring at the blinking modem light | and waiting on the helpline but a professional will produce the tools needed to get to the bottom of the problem.

So is the blinking sync light on a £1500 tester prettier to look at when you "stand there scratching your head?"

| To answer your question: if I can positively ascertain that the customers line is not up to scratch then yes the customer will pay | me for my time.

The customer wiring can be disconnected on the majority of installations and tested by the customer. If the customer is unable to do this what are your chances of getting them to understand your pretty gayboy tester? They will want to see a web page on a screen delivered by way of a modem or router. It's really that simple. If you did it day in and day out you would know that already.

| To answer your question: if I can positively ascertain the customers line is faulty I will communcate that to the 'isp support | staff' and I will be a position not to take any crap from them.

You don't deal with many ISP's, do you. Good luck trying to get them to listen.

| I am interested in fixing the customers issues effectively and with certainty. I am not interested in cheap alternatives, getting | by with this or that, and yes I do find comfort in having high quality testers and tools at my disposal. There's nothing wrong in | that.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you are professional and wanting to fix issues 'effectively and with certainty' you could have easily saved yourself the time here asking what us amateurs use and gone to Google and typed '"ADSL TESTER" and hit [search]. I can confirm that there are plenty of sites in the results that will rub their hands together and be happy to take your money Son ;-)

For what it's worth, we all have our own little ways and I use a standard BT Blue test butt, in HI-Z monitor mode, hooked across the line whilst my elcheapo modem/router tries to sync. I can hear both ends of the 'conversation' like that and you just get to know the noises and if it's going to happen or not. You can even hear the dropouts and line quality too. You see, I too am only interested in getting in and out fast, as I have to deal with the other 7-10 miles of cable outside of the nice clean customers house and have another 5 or so customers to see whilst the phone is ringing and shaking so much in my pocket that I come in my pants. I include this as I see this is cross posted to 'uk.d-i-y' and may be of interest........