Replacing a boiler

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OK, so Vaillant bought a brand.....
.andy
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exhausts
Worm
I
for
A none statement.
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Not really. My point was that from my experience, Glow Worm had or has been producing junk products, but somehow has established a brand name.
It is quite common for a manufacturer from another geography who does not have much of a recognised name in a territory in which they would like to establish one, to buy up a company with a name and little else, and to inject it with decent technology and manufacturing and of course, money.
In a market where there is much conservatism such as the UK plumbing and heating industry, this is a smart move.
My point was simply that in my view, and from my personal experience, Glow Worm does not give me a positive brand message. They may now have Vaillant technology etc. but who knows how that is implemented? Did they fire the management and entire workforce and start again? doubtful? So why would I want to risk that when I can buy known good products with a consistent track record?
.andy
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wrote:

One or two junk products you mean. Those you have had experience off.

Ah, in "your" view.

To milions of others it does.

To Vaillant quality stadards?

Doesn't matter. They have to tow the Vaillant line.

Glow Worm made excellent quality products that were value for money at the time. E.g., the first wall mounted UK made boiler. They did make the odd lemon, as do them all.
The current crop of Glow Worm condensing boilers are top rate. With most, if not all, made in Holland. The heat exchangers are all made in Holland anyhow, and the other components are mainly bought in, like gas valve, PCB board, sensors etc. The low level stuff is rebadged Saunier Duval; best buy the equiv Saunier as it is cheaper. So they have a large leap in quality from bottom to top. You never looked did you. You never did your research.
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Products with poor manufacturing, thin metal for casing, internal components and sharp edges and poor internal fixings are poor and cheap engineering down to a price. Since they will have made probably tens of thousands or more of some of these conventional wall-mount boilers then they will all be the same. I am sure that they didn't single me out for special attention.

That's what I said, and from the outset.

Undoubtedly and that is why the brand was saleable, just like Potterton.

Who knows?

Are you sure about that?

I had two different products of their manufacture installed in new houses by a subcontractor of the builder.. Both were unreliable junk and had a lifetime cost far in excess of what I would consider reasonable.

I always do my research and as you well know, I don't buy on price.

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wrote:

the
odd
most,
PCB
buy
research.
You only went for stainless steel heat exchangers....and Glow Worm have these. Download their instalation & service manual.
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That wasn't the point of the original comments.....
.andy
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wrote:

real
with
bed
mist,
What about the Vaillant THERMOcompact? Am I right in saying that this is their non-combi boiler? Seems its priced between 460 inc VAT (but excluding flue and timer) for 615E and 721 for 628E. Am I right in saying that Vaillant is a good make then?
What would I expect for a fitter to supply and fit a boiler I could buy for 720 myself? Okay, they get to pocket the discount or whatever, but what should I be expecting to get it supplied and fitted? 1k total, 1.5k? Realistically, there shouldn't be much work to replacing a boiler should there? From what I read about the Vaillant, it said "Installing a THERMOcompact means a real saving all round. Typically, the additional components required to fit a conventional boiler can add over 50, with extra installation time of around 1.5 hours." AFAIK, its just disconnect the old boiler, put up new boiler. Wire in, plumb in and test. Of course, that's a very simple look at it, but there shouldn't be any/much more plumbing necessary. If there was, (like removing header tank or something) then I could do that before hand.
Thanks for all the help - its been really helpful.
D
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On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:50:40 +0000, David Hearn wrote:

I think you mean the Turbomax+ range - this is the stock in trade for me [1] These boilers are some of the best of the non-condensing units available but these will not comply with the eventual requirements which effectively means that only the condensing units will be permitted. [2]

The plumbing aspect is actualy a very small part of installing a new boiler. As often as not the combi is replacing a conventional system there are cylinders to remove and new connections to make. (Ideally you want to change the gravity CW to mains to balance any mixer taps and often as not you'll need to change the WC cistern valve - also you might have a leak on the old plumbing when subject to mains). 7 A considerable amount of work can be involved in making good the old balanced flue hole ( OK less up-market installers will leave the metal work in place and just bung some foam in it).
A considerable job is the flushing out of the old system especially if it died due to corrosion. The there is the upgrading of the gas main to support 26kW input or more. The flushing again with chemicals and adding inhibitor.
Don't forget the filling in of the Benchmark log book - if that's done properly with measurement of temperatures, flow rates and gas rates it takes a fair while.
Then there is the likely hood that the old system had problems: Some places too hot, others too cold, other rooms needing TRVs to comply with building regs. Needless to say the new system will need to be balanced (the old one may have been really unbalanced), that takes time even with a IR thermometer.
I charge around about 1000 labour to fit a new boiler give or take. A good 4 days work if done properly. Combi to combi can still take 2.5 days.
[1] Well nearly - I'm tempted to keep a 824e in my store all the while just so I can respond more quickly to emergencies. [2] I know there are ways to be able to fit a low efficiency boiler but I expect they are too difficult to calculate easily whilst estimating a quote.
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The fumes don't smell. In fact, the flue gases are much cleaner than a traditional boiler. The only difference is that the condensing boiler fumes are visible simply due to the water, whilst the traditional fumes stink because they are so environmentally dirty. There are far fewer nasties in condensing plumes.

to
20-30% greater efficiency pays for a lot of PCBs. Choose a decent make and you won't get these problems. Don't choose a make based on what cast iron dinosaurs the companies made in 1965. Modern condensing boilers are almost identical to other modern boilers in terms of complexity. The only differences are in the heat exchanger, condensate drainage and slightly more complicated internal programming.

should
Around 1200 +/- 200 quid for a reputable local installer (but may be difficult to find one able to do it). Around 2500 for BG or other national.

Ideal Icos Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28HE System Keston Celcius 25
In any case, the boiler MUST have a downward firing burner onto a single heat exchanger. Anything less will give you grief.
Christian.
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Not all condensing boiler have internal programming. Some are quite basic and with on-off burners.

Good point.
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On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:23:35 -0000, "Christian McArdle"

I guess that you are thinking of the older dual heat exchanger jobs?
Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.
Condensate happens around the periphery and runs to the drain sump.
The whole assembly is stainless steel, of course.
Viessmann uses a similar arrangement to MAN Heiztechnik of the Econox type burner in their Vitodens 200.
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Well that sounds like a reasonable burner arrangement too. I was under the impression that some boilers used the burner underneath method, where, in a condenser, it gets a nice shower of acid.
Christian.
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On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:39:47 -0000, "Christian McArdle"

Sure. I know that some of the older ones that had secondary heat exchangers did.
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wrote:

the
a
Mine has a bottom mounted pre-mix burner and it's a condensing boiler. the condensate occurs at the heat exchanger edges.
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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:39:47 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

I think if there were an award for worst boiler ever it would have to be the Poxi- Batterton Barcelona condensing boiler. This would probably get awards in both the design and reliability classes.
Needless to say among the many a varied design flaws in the boiler is the updraft premix burner.
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the
in a

I think you mean the Potterton, I think Excel? Useless. the Barcelona was made by Baxi and is now the Baxi something else. It wasn't bad at all.

I have to agree. Yet mine works well, gives no trouble and condensate does not lodge on the burner corroding it.
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