Replacement picture tube out of warranty?

[Fraser]

I watch films in the aspect ratio they were made in, period. You wouldn't take the Mona Lisa and cut some of it out to fit a nice frame you happen to have available. And as TV generally sucks, most of my TV watching is movies. So I have a widescreen TV. Must I apologise for that to you?

Nonsense, learn some film history. Widescreen came about as the movie industries counter to television, which was affecting it's income. They were still showing news reels etc at the time, which TV negated the need for, and in many ways surpassed. Some directors didn't take to it for a long time, Stanley Kubrik for example. Mind you, most of his films were also made in mono sound!!

No, this time learn some DVD history and consumer electronics marketing. The first lot of people to buy DVD were the enthusiasts. We wanted digital surround, multiple audio tracks, all that sort of thing. To be a success, you have to get their buy in, then capture the public. Laser disk never got popular with the enthusiasts, so it died. My player cost £750 at the time, but that was with being chipped etc. Most of us want widescreen, so that's the way it was. Releases got slated in all the review mags if they were masked down to 4:3. DVDs were intended to be the "perfect" delivery mechanism for movies, and cutting parts of the movie out didn't fit into that picture.

Who exactly is doing this brainwashing anyway? :-) Does your tinfoil hat protect you?

Which is very true. Look at a blank wall and see how much of it you can see without moving your eyes. Not much in the up & down department, but you've got around 120 degrees (a lot) of horizontal view. The widest common format,

2.35:1, is a lot closer to this than TVs traditional 4:3. For framing "normal" images, such as landscapes, groups of people, text/signs, widescreen is more natural. Just look at the unusual ways people stand in 4:3 media, they usually much closer than normal people are in day-to-day life. It's unnatural.

Fraser.

[Fraser]

Things are very different in the UK for this then, we get 6 years provided the fault isn't "normal wear and tear" apparently.

I always tell people not to bother with these, except on items that will have wear and tear. Usually things with moving parts like washing machines, dishwashers etc. I'm usually capable of fixing most things, so I never bother getting them myself.

For consumer electronics, if it's going to fail, the chances are that it'll be within the first year. Solid state electronics are pretty reliable if treated well and with the extended warranty often being up to 50% of the purchase price, it's not worth it. Consider the value of the item at the end of the term. Hi-tech gizmos often devalue quicker than cars. As an example, when the Sony playstation was around £300, I took out an 5 year extended warranty for around £120 IIRC. At the end of the term, the item cost £89 brand new. It's a gamble, but one usually worth taking.

In most large electronic stores in the UK, the staff get commission on these but not purchases, so they push them hard. I've seen many articles and TV shows on how bad they are, and given our consumer law they seem unnecessary for a lot of things.

Things may be totally different where you are of course!!

Fraser.

[Fraser]

Hope the weird posting doesn't confuse anyone, pulling all the techy stuff into one place:

What Andy said. :-) That's exactly what the guy at the repair shop said, and they are waiting for me to get back to them on what the retailer/manufacturer say.

The TV has always had a green tint as well, as if the bias was way off. Tried using the service menu once to bring it down, but there was no change, so I set it back to it's original setting. Don't know if that's related, but worth a mention.

Cool, that would be handy! It's a Toshiba 32W8DB.

Cheers,

Fraser.

[Fraser]

The sites you list (which are pretty good btw, thanks) kinda differ from that description though. There doesn't seem to be any mention of the fault being inherent when the item is bought. What does seem to be the case is the concept of a "resonable period" which would differ depending on the item. Some examples of this are mentioned in the sites, e.g. a car oil filter would be around a year, a new battery could discharge on-the-shelf in six months. The upper limit, 6 years from purchase in England, 5 years from fault discovery in Scotland (me) only applies to what you can actually bring a civil court case up for. Obviously, if you can't do that, then the shop really doesn't have to do anything.

For an expensive TV, the consensus seems to be that 3.5 years is "unreasonable". Hopefully the store will see it that way!

Fraser.

[Fraser]

That website has pretty much the same claim. From the FAQ at:

--- >8 --- Q. I bought a fridge/freezer about 18 months ago, and the freezer section has completely failed. I went back to the shop, but they refused to do anything as it was outside the original 12 month guarantee. What are my rights? A. Firstly, when you buy goods from a shop, you enter into a contract under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). This holds the shop liable for up to six years after purchase (Limitation Act 1980), providing that you can show that the problem is down to an unreasonable fault and not normal wear and tear. Secondly, remember that the guarantee is in addition to these statutory legal rights. Don't be taken in by the shop's argument here - they are using the issue of the guarantee as a red herring to try to avoid their legal obligations toward you. See our leaflet 'Buying Goods' for more information on your rights.

--- >8 ---

Oh yeah, probably should have mentioned I'm in Scotland, so things may be a little different (5 years from discovery of fault, as opposed to 6 from purchase). I put part (but not all) of the purchase on my Visa, which also may have relevance. The Trading Standards website says "This means that the credit card company and the supplier have the same obligations and responsibilities to you for the goods being satisfactory.", however that may not apply because 100% of the purchase wasn't put on the credit card. I'll probably keep that as a last resort.

I'll be getting in touch with the store on Monday. Gives me a chance to find the receipt (which Trading Standards says isn't actually necessary!) and let the store quieten down a bit after the Christmas sales. It will be easier if the manager is in a good mood!! ;-) Fingers crossed!!

Fraser.

[Andy Hall]

Be careful here. The 6 year period is a statute of limitations which in effect lets the retailer off the hook at the end of that time. It doesn't mean that they *have* to fix problems with *any* product for that whole period.

In effect, the manufacturer's warranty period means that problems that occur during the warranty period should be fixed without your having to negotiate the issue. Between the end of that and 6 years you

*may* have a case, depending on the product, its position in the market and what it cost. The issue then comes to whether the retailer wants to play ball - this may well not be a store manager decision - and how far you then want to pursue the issue.

Ultimately, you can take it to the court where you may win something. Before embarking on that course, I would certainly talk to Trading Standards for an opinion on what you are likely to get. One factor in this is whether you are prepared to invest the effort required and wait the amount of time that it will take to get a hearing.

You mentioned that the there had always been a green caste over the picture. This could well have been a manufacturing defect which was a precursor to the catastrophic failure that has happened now. Arguably, you should have reported that at the outset, but it's too late for that now.

There is new legislation as a result of an EU Directive which puts the onus on the retailer to prove that there was not a manufacturing defect. However, IIRC, you only have 6 months after purchase to report a problem due to that. Also, I believe that the UK has not yet fully implemented all of the Directive provisions into statute, and possibly Scotland will be different anyway. It may be that this won't apply anyway since your purchase probably predates the new legislation. Again TS will be able to help you.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[half_pint]

Can I just surprise you there? If you look at a wall and focus on a point which is far enough away to be in focus (about 10 inches, but a reasonable distance for discussion is about say 4 feet?) the image you can see in detail is round effectively perfectly round. This is because visual sensitivity on the eyes retina is round. (Consult any text book or google on fovea and macula). And you can forget any two eyes arguement, both eyes are focused on the same point, this is how our eyes work. Yes the field of vison when moving your eyes is wider, due to the bone structure of the face, but if I look between my legs I have 360 degrees vision in the horizontal range.

Lol you mean like the way a picture of two men carrrying a ladder is used to advertise WS TV?

If you look at a randon selection of 'art' pictures you will find only about 10% in a WS format. Unsurprisingly you will find that on average the ratio is 1:1. Pick up any newspaper and count the WS images (I just did) there are hardly any, most are taller than wide. How do you explaing that? Answer - You can't.

I actually have a copy of the Sun here with an article on the Beckams (which was filmed in WS), 3 out of the four pictures printed are in a portrait format (taller than wide). (I only bought it for a cheap TV guide btw).

However if the visual sensitivity of the eye does evolve into a WS format I will conceed it is a more natural format.

In the mean time I think you are living in the land of clouds and cookoo's ( or should I say seagulls, which do actually have a WS visual sensitivity)

--

--------------- regards half_pint

[Mike]

Even to the point of stupidity. Consider a salesman's job. It's to sell you the product, right? So you build up how good the product is etc. right?

Then, me having decided on the product (in this case a video), out comes the extended warranty spiel. "No thanks." says I. Salesman's response? "Well, these devices are very unreliable and prone to breaking down. The repair costs are astronomical, you really should get the warranty".

The temptation was to say "You're right, they are total crap. I'm not buying one of those. See ya!" ... and put in a good word to the manager for his honest salesman :)

In practice: the item was a Goldstar (LG) PW904i video. I had one, my uncle had one. Both saw day to day domestic use.

Uncle: First one packed up within warranty (display lights up every segment, and just keeps cycling, won't power up). Power supply replaced. Broke again, same fault, about 12 months later.

Mine: Broke just out of warranty (14 months?) Replacement PSU would be 50 pounds. Broke again after about 18 months. Replacement electrolytics for existing PSU, a couple of pounds. Still going OK.

So the salesman was right, they are unreliable rubbish (for longevity).

Someone has cut the corners on the design of this PSU so that it will last (guaranteed) 12 months, and anything beyond that is a bonus. A total of 4 manufacturer's original PSUs, all gone phut with duff electrolytics. I'd call that unreasonable. I wish I'd known about the 6 year limit referenced above ...

Mike.

[Bob Brenchley.]

No it isn't. If your eyes are working correctly you will be seeing a widescreen view of the wall.

But your view on the world, as you have two eyes, is NOT round - it is widescreen.

No i isn't. Learn about vision.

You what???

Very rare that you will find a square picture.

Because newspapers and magazines are designed to be read in columns.

It already is.

They have a wider view than us, but ours is still a widescreen view.

[Bob Brenchley.]

Wrong. You get "up to 6 years". It depends very much on the product and the fault - and it is up to you to prove that the fault was inherent in the product from the time of purchase.

[Fraser]

My bad; over simplification in the post, I understand what the 6 year thing refers to i.e. raising civil cases. Doesn't mean you'll win!! ;-)

Having found the receipt, I now realise that it cost £1050, so that should help the case. It was a top of the range set, highly rated in What HiFi (or some other mag), and made by one of the largest TV manufacturers. Should be a reasonable case that it should last four years (receipt confirms purchase date as Sept 1999). Hopefully!

Definitely a good idea, I'll look them up tomorrow & pay them a visit. It may well be that they provide the tube, and I the labor. It's actually been in for repair since October, so I don't expect to be charged a lot for the work given their slowness in even getting it up onto the test bed (about 3-4 weeks ago).

Would that be negative to my cause? If so, I could keep quiet about it as I haven't spoken to Comet yet about it.

Also, it's not always been there; I'd say around 6-9 months before the current failure. Before that, there were no issues, other than a little picture foldback, but there were user-accessable screen position controls I'd used to minimise that.

All in all, I've had several problems. Could these help my case, or should I just focus on the current fault?

When you say manufacturing defect, do you mean a defect unique to my item, or would it also include a generic design defect? The guy in the repair shop mentioned it as a known problem with this tube, and in my mind that would be suitable justification for repair.

Fraser.

[Fraser]

There was a bad batch of capacitors a while back, perhaps related to your problem. Just about everything they were used on failed due to electrolyte leakage. If that's the case, going on the advice seen here, it's an inherent fault and you should be entitled to compensation. I think.

Fraser.

[Fraser]

Not according to the following at:

(in reference to the latter part of your statement that is, I agree on the "up to 6 years" bit, my post was badly worded)

----------- >8 ----------- Q. I bought a fridge/freezer about 18 months ago, and the freezer section has completely failed. I went back to the shop, but they refused to do anything as it was outside the original 12 month guarantee. What are my rights? A. Firstly, when you buy goods from a shop, you enter into a contract under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). This holds the shop liable for up to six years after purchase (Limitation Act 1980), providing that you can show that the problem is down to an unreasonable fault and not normal wear and tear. Secondly, remember that the guarantee is in addition to these statutory legal rights. Don't be taken in by the shop's argument here - they are using the issue of the guarantee as a red herring to try to avoid their legal obligations toward you. See our leaflet 'Buying Goods' for more information on your rights.

----------- >8 -----------

No mention of having the fault present at the time of purchase at all, just that's it's considered "unreasonable". I'll ask them tomorrow when I am in Trading Standards and post back results.

Thanks for all the input everyone, appreciated!!

Fraser.

[Andy Hall]

Based on that, I would certainly pursue it.

That's not good service at all.

I think that offering a compromise position won't do any harm either.

I wouldn't mention it unless you get completely stonewalled. If that happens then I might be tempted to push the point. The problem is that they can say that you should have reported it earlier. However since the purchase pre-dates the new legislation, it probably doesn't matter too much.

I suppose the lesson here is, if you buy something top of the line then go over it very carefully and if it is not perfect then return it.

If you can catalogue them then yes, I suppose you could argue manufacturing defect or design problems.

AIUI, it can be either, because a design defect could make it unfit for purpose - assuming it does.

Is the repair shop associated with the retailer or a separate organisation? Either way he's your ally, but if he's a separate organisation, would he be prepared to state that the tube has a known design problem? Have you tried searching on the web using the part number of the tube to see if there is any mention of it? Perhaps some enquiries at Philips would reveal something.

Another thing to think about before you go too far with this is the residual value in the product. How long would you expect it to last before buying a replacement? Let's say 8 years for the sake of argument. Therefore you have £500 of value left if you assume a linear write down. So, before committing to a lot of time and direct and indirect cost if you consider legal action or other remedies, keep in mind that that is really the value that you are protecting, not the original purchase price.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[Millie Meecher]

Sorry Fraser, only just seen this post. Had a Toshiba tube go at three year old (not the same model as yours). Wrote to them, and they requested proof of purchase and an engineer's report stating the tube had failed.

Never heard a word from them myself, but they contacted the engineer and offered to pay for the tube. I paid the labour.

The address I wrote to was at Camberley, Surry. GU15 3DT

HTH

[The Natural Philosopher]

I think this is extremely good advice, and, if followed, would actually improve product quality.

I have a Land Rover Defender that has been back for about half a dozen warranty repairs, including repsraying bits of it that corroded. As I understand it, every time a warranty repair is undertaken, teh car manufacture gets the bits back, sends them back to its supplier, and they bear the cost of replacement. If this happenes often enough, those parts don't get replaced with et same parts, but with better parts, because the manufacturers stop making any profit.

You have to be ruthless. Laziness is what allows teh manufactures to believe that they cheapo crap they are bolting in is of acceptable quality. In teh case of 99% of teh British Car industry, what happened was that people didn't send the cars back, they simply stopped buying them and the whole industry vanished.

I have some sympathy with manufactureres: Its not easy to control component quality. As a designer for productiomn my designs were often compromised by the buyer attempting to save pence by buying substandard components. Or productin engineers removing them altogether ("but they still work: Yes, but not when they get hot/a low spec bunch of trnsasitors get used/ under exterem power conditions etc etc).

In the OP's case, the fact that the set is worth better than a grand, and a picture tube fitted is probably far less than that, its worth pursuing even on a split/parts labour cost. Go direct to the manufacturers and complain about the quality of the product, and the quality of service from the retailer. In the car world at least, car dealers who have a slew of complaints against them lose franchises.

[geoff]

In message , half_pint writes

I thought that 16:9 formed a golden rectangle.

Anyway, rant on if you wish, but that's the standard which is on it's way in, so what are you going to do when your trusty old 4:3 finally croaks - stop watching TV?

[geoff]

In message , half_pint writes

Nothing down there either?

Says it all

[James Sweet]

Why all the argument? The reason behind widescreen is irrelevant, the fact is that it's the format of the future, virtually every movie in existance was filmed in something closer to 16:9 than 4:3. Regardless of the reason, this means that the director intended it to be viewed in a widescreen format so with a 4:3 screen you miss things on the edges of the screen. If theaters were all 4:3 then the shots would be made so as to not place things off the edges. That said, I don't own a widescreen set, but I do have one large enough that WS movies are of acceptable size. Many DVD's have both formats on one disc so there's no compromise, and to me DVD is an amazing format, it's the first to really catch on since VHS and side by side there's no comparison. The picture and sound quality from DVD is amazing, the whole movie fits on one side of one disc, there's random access, no rewinding, and the discs themselves are compact and cheap, they don't wear out, it's the only format I buy anymore.

[half_pint]

There is no such thing as a golden rectangle, its a myth which developed in the 18th-19th century. Google in it but be careful to avoid the red herring sites.

No I will buy a proper sized TV, there are still plenty of propper broadcasts available. A WS TV of a reasonable hight is ridiculously expensive. Eventually people will realise they have been sold a pig in a poke. If someone can tell me who is responsible for the introduction of widescreen TV perhaps I can sue them. I am sure some corrupt practice must have taken place for it to happen. I can't believe 99% of the population are morons On second thoughts.........

You know I have even seen some programs resorting to splitting the WS down the middle and showing two propper pictures. Crazy.

I guess I will just have to suffer along in this insane world. You can now pick up a didgtal transistor radio for £100 would you believe, then you need add on another £300 for and ariel to get half decent reception.

Ain't milk brilliant eh?

What will you do when your old 4:3 portable vacuum tube TV croaks bye the way? I look forward to hearing your answer

--

--------------- regards half_pint

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