Removing HW Cylinder connector insert

[i.lewis2]

Dear All,

Not posted for a long while but still read the new threads most days.

I have a problem...at the top of my indirect vented HW cylinder is the 22mm outlet pipe leading to the various HW taps in the house. The cylinder has a 1"BSP female thread in the copper with a brass insert to convert to a 22mm compression fitting.

I would like to install a Surrey flange in this location and would like

to remove the brass insert. But it doesnt want to be shifted without distorting the cylinder (already done this and fixed without splitting the cylinder). The cylinder was full of water for additional support during this attempt at removal.

Is this a removable insert or is it part of the cylinder installed at manufacture and not designed to be removed? If it is removable any ideas on releasing the thread? Heat/plus gas etc? (The cylinder is coated in insulating foam if this is important).

The Surrey flange has a 1"BSP male thread to install in the top of the cylinder and a female 1"BSP thread in the top of the flange to take the reinstalled insert from the cylinder.

regards

Ian L

[John Stumbles]

It's just stuck. I had one like that and decided that discretion is the better part of valour and left it be. If you want a shower flange use an essex instead.

[Roger Mills]

The 1" to 3/4" adapter should certainly be removeable - but it's probably in pretty tightly, and stuck with thread sealant. There's no absolute guarantee that it will come out non-destructively, but your best best - the same as when removing immersion heaters - is to employ impact rather than steady torque. In other words, don't use a long spanner and pull on the end but use a shorter spanner and hit it with a hammer. Keeping the cylinder full of water while you do it is a very good idea.

[John Rumm]

Well assuming that walloping it does not work, you can get round it by making your own Surrey/Warix flange....

(ASCII art alert - switch to a monospaced font)

You need a 22mm solder ring tee, and a 22mm male to 15mm female end feed fitting reducer.

First make the inner pipe of the flange from a bit of 15mm copper pipe. Near the bottom end of the pipe, cut about half of the way through it with a hacksaw. Now cut along the pipe up from the end so that you cut a section of pipe out leaving just a semi circular bit left:

| | | | | | | | | | ---> | _| | | | | | | | | | | | |

Flatten the remaining bit of pipe and then fold it round to make a shroud over the end of the pipe. This will prevent the pipe sucking straight "up" and messing up the stratification of water in the tank:

| | | | | | | \___

Now take your fitting reducer and stick it on the top of the 15mm pipe

*upside down*, and tap it down onto the pipe such that you force it past the end stop designed to prevent the 15mm pipe passing right into the reducer (trying a selection of fitting reducers you may find one loose enough in the first place to go without much force) position it so that there is an inch or two sticking out of the top of the reducer. Solder it in place:

| | | | | | || || || || / | | \ / | | \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \___

Now cut the 22mm pipe leaving the top of the cylinder (turning off the feed to and draining a few litres out of it first if you want to keep dry!)

Fit a 22mm equal tee to the top of the cylinder pipe outlet pipe, connect the old pipe to the rest of the taps to the side of the tee, and insert your "flange" pipe into the top. Connect the shower etc to the

15mm pipe at the top of the flange. Solder it all up, job done:

^ | | To shower |

| | | | | | | | | | || || || || / | | \ / | | \ || | | || || | | || | | | | | | | |_________ | | | | | | Tee, to taps | | | | | | _________ | | | | | | | | || | | || || | | || | | | | | | | | | | | |

[fred]

Nice one John, I've considered a similar setup with a (much) longer central pipe as a return for a DHW circulation pump.

[Steve Firth]

Twas indeed. The only change I would make is instead of copper bashing to make a right angle I would solder a 90 end feed elbow to the end of the 15 mm tube but would cut off the unsoldered arm of the elbow.

OTOH, every commerical Surrey flange I have seen doesn't have a right angle for water draw off.

[Doctor Drivel]

I would solder in a 15mm male cap at the end of the pipe. Then drill holes around the pipe. Then it takes in water from 360 degrees at the top of the cylinder. Much better. Ramming a fitting over a pipe is not good.

Another way is to have a compression: 15mm top X 22mm centre X 22mm bottom tee. Or, depending on cylinder connection a compression: 15mm top X 22mm centre X 3/4" male or female bottom tee.

Drill or file out the 15mm pipe stop in the compression tee. Now a 15mm pipe with an internal male solder cap in the end can be inserted. The olive slid down and the nut tightened. The tee just fits in the cylinder DHW draw-off. A blow torch will not be needed.

[i.lewis2]

Thanks John,

Great ascii art...I had seen this described on uk.diy some months ago but was worried about flow rate through the 22mm to the pipe as its internal cross section is reduced by the presence of the 15mm pipe to the shower.

Has anyone tried this and obtained reasonable flow rates to the hot taps (eg bath)?

Ian L

[Doctor Drivel]

Best read what I wrote, and use compression fittings, you don't force pipes past pipe stops on fittings. If the tapping on the top of the cylinder is

1" BSP, then a 1" BSP x 22mm x 22mm tee can be used. Then reduce to 15mm at the top of the tee (the shower take off). The tee off to the bath is then 22mm so full flow to baths. Using a 22mm tee and running a 15mm through it will obviously reduce flow.

[John Rumm]

Well to an extent it will have to reduce the flow a bit, but by how much is going ot be hard to call. The situation is unlikely to be any better with a "real" Surrey flange unless you can find one that fits directly into the cylinder 1" connector without requiring any reduction boss.

[John Rumm]

Hmm, plumbing is not your thing is it... stick to flags.

The minor points he neglects to mention are: that while sliding an end feed fitting reducer down a length of 15mm pipe is very easy, doing something similar with a brass compression fitting will require that you drill out the pipe end stop. You may find the cost of the 15mm drill bit and a drill press a tad excessive (although I can see in dribble's case it is probably safer he stick to spanners rather than needing a blow torch).

As for the 1" BSP male to 2 x 22mm compression fitting, good luck finding one of those! (would be simpler if you have the less common cylinder that has a male 1" BSP spigot at the top).

You may be able to assemble something from an malleable iron 3 x female tee and a selection of nipples and bosses, however it is unlikely to make much if any difference to the flow rate.

[Doctor Drivel]

No. Pipe and plumbing are not as one as your tiny mind thinks. This is sad.

It isn't. There is a pipe stop in the fitting. You are ramming a pipe past a stop. Onl;y cowboys do this. The pipe stop in the fitting should be filed or drilled out.

EXACTLY! As you should, drill it out.

Press? My God.

1" BSP x 28mm with reducers.

If anyone is making their own Surrey flange, justfollow what I wrote. DON'T ram pipes past pipe stops in end feed fittings.

[John Rumm]

[Doctor Drivel]

The American Confederate Stainless Banner. Lowered for the last time on 6th November 1865 at Liverpool, England many months after the Confederate surrender to Union forces, when CSS Shenandoah surrendered to HMS Donegal. The last act of the American Civil war was when Captain Wardell walked up the steps of Liverpool Town Hall and officially surrendered CSS Shenandoah in writing. Note the insert stars and bars and white background.

Flags.