Re: Huf Haus on last night's Grand Designs

Page 4 of 12  
wrote:

I understand the pass mark for C&G2381 (16th edition wiring regs) is 40%, and that everyone passes. If you think about it you'd get 25% just by ticking "A" for each of the 60 questions, so assuming there's 20 easy questions which you can get right without thinking you would be on 33% - just tick the A's for the remaining 40 questions and you are in.
Kinda worrying though that we've got sparkies wandering around the country with 60% lack of knowledge ;)
PoP
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No, don't worry about it. As long as they are card carrying NICEIC members there won't be a problem. .andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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writes

We have you
--
geoff

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LOL, what a jolly there Maxie.
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IMM wrote in message ...

My experience in industry is that this has already happened. The chance of engineers having a sound understanding of design and analysis has become much worse in the last 10 years. Good people IME come from a relatively small number of old established universities and polytechnics who still have rigorous and high teaching standards. A few come through on basic high innate ability from the dross institutions. Contrary to IMM's beliefs, the Oxbridge engineering graduates I've come across have all had outstanding intellect and ability. Can't speak for the arts lot though. I'll always hire the graduates who can think, sadly many can't.
Regards Capitol
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have
How do you know they can think?
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IMM wrote:

Is very simple. You give them a test, and watch what they do.
It's been done with monkeys, why not humans?
You put the banana under a flower pot, and see if they lift it up. This is taken as evidence of the ability to imagine the unseen banana under the flowerpot, and formulate a plan of action to get to it.
Applied to comp sci graduates from un snotty unis the usual response is 'thats not fair, you didn't tell us, and the government ought to tell us, that its possible to put bananas under a flower pot', followed by a claim for constructive dismissal and discrimination against the terminally stupid.

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wrote:

Are you suggesting that IMM would be knowledgeable enough to lift the flowerpot?
I think you are more likely to get 3 hours worth of explanation about how he doesn't like bananas! ;)
PoP
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LOL, you should script write the Vicar of Dibley, such fun.
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PoP wrote:

No.
As I pointed out.

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I profoundly wish there was no truth in your assertion; but in my direct experience of regular guest lecturing at a couple of universities ("established", "traditional", or whatever we're supposed to call "real" ones - incidentally dissing a few excellent poly departments such as Hatfield's comp sci course), and confirmed by several friends who do Uni teaching full time - there is at least a substantial minority of students who expect detailed handholding and ludicrously explicit guidance about what will be On The Exam.
I'm sure this attitude isn't totally a recent invention: equally, I'm sure it's more prevalent, and much more vocally expressed, than 20-30 years ago when Uni education was shamelessly "elitist", i.e. aimed to nurture the critical thinking skills of those able to string a few coherent thoughts together. There are still plenty of bright, self-motivated, intellectually curious students coming through: but the 'teaching quality exercises' seem to be geared towards making Uni teaching more and more like school teaching.
Fortunately, most of the lecturers I know are still insisting on telling their students that it's an *education* they're getting, not some narrow "training", and that final exam questions and intermediate assessments/assignments are there to demonstrate reasoning from appropriately understood principles and an ability to do some unguided fact-gathering and sifting, rather than regurgitaion of last term's lecture notes. But as I say, there is more of an objection to this discipline than there once was: and it comes strongly, incidentally, from some students who are paying full (overseas) fees, and will say, more or less explicitly, "I [or more accurately, my parents or my country' government] have paid scads of money to send me on this course, when I have this qualification I can get a Good Job, it's your job to make sure I get this qualification".
Indeed, one of the (presumably) unintended consequences of making students pay increasing amounts of their own money for their tuition - rather than treating their education as an investment by the whole of society in the minds of the best-and-brightest - is that it may well reinforce this narrow, selfish, consumerist approach to ones university education. Depressing... but, as noted, not universal, or even yet the majority viewpoint in the few institutions I have close contact with.

Now here, oh Naturally Philosophical one, you stray in my view into the world of rant. No doubt there's some 'customer culture' element to the whinges of the wannabe spoonfeds, as I've already alluded to above: but regular legal action for teaching at an appropriate level has yet to rear its ugly head in UK academe!
Stefek
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wrote:

So what. All students try to milk the lecturers beforehand about what is in the exam. We used to send a dollybird with her skirt deliberately pulled up her bum to one lecturer, who we knew would give more to her than anyone else.
With many course the Qs are pretty obvious. One lecturer would prepare us by saying "If this was course where I didn't know the Qs until the day, this is how I would approach it". It was applying logic to the syllabus, and narrowing down matters.

teaching.
I was always told answer anyway you like, as long as you justify your approach and reasoning.

appropriately
That is correct. But that is also used as a get out by some uni's for bad teaching. In short, they are saying, do it yourself.

paying
Quite right. It is the part responsibility of the institution to ensure students are up to scratch and of the standard required.
I see the snots have one-to-one tutorials. All paid for by taxpayers.

narrow,
Yes, like in the USA, where many courses are vocational, or mere training courses.

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Exactly which "High Tech" is that?
I warned my son in 1990 that if he went to Uni to study "Computer Science" it may no longer be the flavour of the month by the time he hit the job market. He stayed on to do a PHD and left Uni in 1996. He did get a job and is reasonably well paid at the mo, but the rope bridge is collapsing behind him. Both he and his fiance (also in IT) would not be able to get another job in IT if they had to.
In the '90s they were telling us the next tech boom after IT would be biotechnology what happened to that?

You sound like Harodl Wislon in 1963, that was all bullshit as well, the Computer mainframe industry, the car industry, the steel industry, the jet engine industry, and the rest were just on the point of going down the gurgler. The country sold out it's electronics industry to the Chinese/Taiwanese/Koreans at the earliest oportunity.

??
Expanding numbers up to 50% in HE can only be done on a lowest common denominator principal.
DG
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wrote:

You may be right, however an OU degree is very well recognised in industry because it demonstrates a real commitment to get thru a significant amount of material in ones own time etc. And without all the camel shagging and popsicol drinking that takes place at a red brick.
PoP
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PoP wrote in message ...

I thought that went out with the Crusaders?
Regards Capitol
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<snip>

mainly
it
Look at many consumer items you buy in the UK, many are made in the far east (and many of those made in the UK are only assembled here - the parts coming in from abroad), what has caused the problems in Germany is the reunification of east and west Germany and the cost of modernising the industries of the old East Germany.
The main problem with the Wilson Government was not creating highly skilled technicians, scientist etc but keeping them in the country once they started to earn money, they could earn more abroad - or should I say keep more of that money...
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east
coming
That is true. But the realisation that much of their industry is falling away to the far east is also a big factor. In the east at least they can build new industries that don't compete with the far east. So a bit of a win, win there.

skilled
started
That was a point. the brain drain. At one point Thatcher was encouraging it, saying to graduates that you speak English the most widely spoken language in the world and all the other virtues.
Wilson had a hell of job inheriting outdated industry that was neglected in the 1950s. British management had a mentality of cheap labour rather than efficiency using machines, that is why we has an immigration scheme.
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where
Not at all, they could build industry's that could compete with the far east in any part of Germany, the reason why many of the western countries can't compete is due to cost of labour - Nothing more and nothing less.
<snip>

in
Which AIUI is how the far east economies work to a point, people get paid the going rate for the work and not one graded on some form of comparison with other peoples wages in another industry or even country...
that is why we has an immigration scheme.

Immigration was due to a shortage of labour, nothing to do with cost.
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far
falling
can
a
east
< snip drivel from someone who can't get a simple point >
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being
parts
the
of
But you haven't snipped out your own words !
Just admit you're wrong, no one is going to laugh at you, just behind your back !...
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