Re: Forthcoming Building Regulations on electrical work (Part P)

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On 23 Jul 2003 13:36:22 -0700, northern snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (northern_relayer) wrote:

Thanks for drawing attention to this, it has been expected for a while. I notice the link at the bottom of the page to the DTLR web site doesn't work.
Something that draws my attention:
"4. Each year an average of 30 people die and about 1150 are seriously injured in accidents involving defective fixed electrical installations in the home, including fires caused by such installations."
How many lives might be saved by spending an equivalent amount of money on things like smoking or car vehicle accidents?
Besides which, I reckon that probably 90%+ of the fatalities occur from work carried out by the DIYer rather than the tradesman, and I don't somehow see Joe Public taking the slightest bit of notice.
Andrew
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Andrew McKay wrote:

If I understand the proposals correctly the problem for DIYers is that it means you will have to produce a certificate or something (like the FENSA cert. for replacement windows) when you sell your house and, if you don't, lay yourself open to compensation claims after the event.
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"parish" <parish_AT_ntlworld.com> wrote in message

I wonder if B&Q will give the certificates away for free with new kitchens and bathrooms or if they'll stick true to form and sell you one on request ? :-))
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"parish" <parish_AT_ntlworld.com> wrote in message

kitchens
request ?

ROFLMAO !!!! With my luck, B&Q would open a warehouse next door.
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:48:49 GMT, "BigWallop"
You do seem to have a fascination with B&Q - are you considering a new career as one of their ever-so-helpful-helpers? <g,d&rvvf>
Andrew
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wrote:

I just can't stand the places and I think they should invest in some people that know what the job is like from the inside. They're actually getting just as bad as my local wholesalers. :-))
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parish <parish_AT_ntlworld.com> wrote:

Beaten you to it, I am already restoring a farmhouse in Italy. There's none of this shit regulation, a friend over there who is the electrician at the local textile factory came up to help me do the wiring and thought that the idea that only certificated individuls could work on systems was hilarious "the sort of shit that the Germans come up with".
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:21:07 +0000, parish <parish_AT_ntlworld.com> wrote:

So all that would happen with this additional piece of pointless regulation is that people who want to wire themselves will continue to do so, and then one of two things will happen when it comes to sale time.
a) seller will get an electrical inspection done and be able to produce certificate at his cost whereas now the buyer pays.
b) people will apply for regularisation at the local authority. This costs typically 20% more than if a Building Notice had been requested in the first place. However, since there is no VAT on the regularisation fee, the difference in cost is minimal.
Both of these will be technically breaking the law, but my estimation is that it will be as widespread as speeding.
With any luck, the government will continue digging in the hole in which it finds itself and this won't make the statute books due to lack of priority.
.andy
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wrote:

I think you will find this is scheduled to enter statute next April. It has been rumoured for a while, the sparkies I did my C&G2381 course with earlier this year knew all about it.
What you have to realise is what is going on behind the scenes. These new regulations favour the big companies, who eventually will be the only ones able to furnish their sparkies with the necessary experience and certification requirements. The small one-man-band operators will be sacrificed because in true Labour style everyone really should be an employee of BigCo.
Being an employee of BigCo means that you are on PAYE. And being on PAYE means it is very easy for the Inland Revenue to get at your tax.
Plus of course Labour as a political party are deeply in debt. So there is probably some palm oiling going on behind the scenes here with BigCo's making donations. This is EXACTLY what is going on in the IT industry with some of the big players starving out the little guys.
Example: An IT company such as EDS (they write the Inland Revenue IT systems which never work - e.g. child tax credit) charge out a warm body at a cost of about 1,000 per day. They pay the warm body 200 per day, pocketing 800 per day in profit - which is taken offshore.
If the warm body were an IT contractor (as I was) then exactly the same person who subcontracted to EDS (e.g.) would charge the same client directly (without the EDS middle man) in the region of 300 per day - without offshoring. Much more profitable using the little guy who doesn't have all the overheads of BigCo.
At the end of the day these sorts of stupid policies hurt the chancellor in ways he can't imagine. My income level used to be a guaranteed 60K per year (that's 300 per day, 200 days worked per year), which the chancellor gained lucrative amounts of tax on (up until last year I paid in tax what I will now receive as total renumeration). With the handyman business I'm likely to be earning more like 20K per year - because that's what I need to survive on, and if necessary I'll stay at home 2 days a week to make sure I don't pay the chancellor any more than he has to receive. Once I've got the loaves on the table to feed my family I couldn't give a toss about working any harder - it isn't worth it under Labour.
Meanwhile Labour have (a) opened the floodgates with respect to giving visas to IT migrants and (b) promoted the offshoring of work to India and elsewhere.
As a direct result of their own policies Labour are losing tax revenue hand over fist in the IT field, which is why Gordon is now finding inventive new ways of taxing the blue collar worker. Remember the good old days when Labour were going to get into power to tax the rich?
One other thing that may have slipped past the jobbing handymen. Gordon Brown extended the reach of IR35 in this years budget to include nannies, butlers and others who are employed by other members of the public. That means that 95% of all income coming into your company from a client is supposed to be treated as personal salary, regardless of whether you decide to pay that to yourself or not:
http://www.accountancyage.com/News/1133170
There weren't any blowing of trumpets with regard to this change, but from next April you can expect any Inland Revenue inspector to get a gleeful look in his eye should he inspect your books (the tax isn't due until next April).
Someone mentioned on this thread about moving to France to do up an old farmhouse. Sounds like a jolly good idea to me!
Andrew
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If I wanted to be really paranoid, I would wonder whether the proposed colour changes for fixed wiring cores (from red/black to brown/blue etc), were perhaps intended to coincide with the proposed regulations which will make DIY wiring difficult/illegal. This way it will be difficult to claim that that new ring main spur has been in place for at least five years "long before the new regulations came in guv!".
Perhaps we should all be laying in stocks of T&E in the current colours?
Charles F
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:58:02 GMT, "Charles Fearnley"
I was pondering that very topic earlier today, as I've got a few reels of the old colour knocking around (seems to me I used to buy a new reel each time I went in a shed.....).
Andrew
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wrote:

If fixed electrical works can only be carried out by certificated people, what will the impact be on the sheds/lighting shops etc.? Would they continue to sell light fittings, swiches, cable, trunking etc in the knowledge that they were being sold to people who couldn't use them? Or are we heading to a position where these things will only be available for purchase via an electrician?
Of course cable etc will be available from e.g., France - perhaps P&O will offer day trips to sheds in France from where you can smuggle in some cable. I can just hear the customs now "is that a flourescent light fitting I can see or are you just pleased to see me?"
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wrote:

I don't know the details but AIUI you have to be a card carrying electrician to work on fixed wiring in Australia. IIRC there are two grades: one can do all the roughing in of cables, but only the higher grade is allowed to do the terminating at fittings.
The reality is that there are people out there (both DIY and 'professional') who should not be let anywhere near electrics but this does all look like sledgehammers to crack nuts. If it is really thought that there are lurking hazards it would make more sense to insist on a safety test when a property is sold.
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wrote:

That is correct. When I attended the C&G2381 certification course a short time ago there was an electrician (cum gas fitter and any other skilled trade you can think of....) who had just returned from living and working in Australia (personally I feel the guy must either be barmy, or Aus is a lot worse than it is made out to be....) where he practiced as an electrician.
He said it is mandatory that anyone who works on electrical installation is an approved contractor.
Andrew
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    parish <parish_AT_ntlworld.com> writes:

Not unless they've changed it recently. They did what we should have done -- brought it under building control so BS7671 becomes mandatory, but not imposed all the stupid paperwork and cost overheads.
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From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, parish <parish_AT_ntlworld.com> wrote on Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:43:04 +0000:>Good question. I believe that DIY electrical work is already banned in

Are there any Scottish BCOs in this group (even if you're lurking)? There are a number of Eng&W BCOs here, but it would be useful to get an insight into how the Scottish system of control differs. This IS a UK group after all.
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The BCO's I've met up here are just ordinary guys who know the jobs and let you do yours. I find them pretty consistent with the methods of regulation and what they'll let you get away with. They also seem to be on the same page as to what needs and has to be done before they'll let the job through to the next stage. Yes, all in all, I find them easy to work with on all our projects.
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BigWallop wrote re Scottish BCOs:

Would you know anything about BCOs in Sutherland? We're considering some major work.
Sheila
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From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, "BigWallop"

I'm sure that Scottish BCOs are as professional as their Southern colleagues, that they have a similar proportion of good-guys vs. cowboys, etc., and know the ins-and-outs of the Scottish Building Act & Regulations. It's just that they differ from the Building Act and Building Regulations in England & Wales. AFAIK, they don't have Approved Inspectors or Building Notices; building work can't start until a Warrant has been issued; and (the thing that sparked it off in my mind (no pun intended)), they have some regulations relating to electrical installations. From the perspective of an English BCO, these things are foreign, so I was wondering if any Scottish BCOs would like to chip in with how such matters work North of the border.
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I can tell you how it worked for someone I know who does work there. BS7671 is called up by the building regs and therefore all electrical work must conform to it. However, there is no requirement to notify BCO's of any electrical work, and no requirement for them or anyone else to inspect it, although they may inspect it if they want to. Typically, it gets inspected by the BCO if it's part of a job where other things are being inspected, i.e. part of some construction work, and not otherwise. If the work was done by an electrical company, the BCO will usually just ask for the completion certificate, and if it was DIY, the BCO will check it themselves, but they can't demand that you get it check/tested by someone else.
I don't know how well that agrees with what's supposed to happen, but I'm told this is what happens in practice.
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