Re: Cylinder v thermal store

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240m2)
The Tristor is a solar thermal store. This is quite different to the Tornado unvented cylinder. It uses mains pressure water for the whole house, but the operation is fundamentally different to an unvented cylinder. An unvented cylinder cannot be DIYed, a thermal store can.
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240m2)
Chris
What are you intending to do.? What size house, etc, etc?
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IMM wrote:

hmmmmmm Rubbish. I know plenty of people that have DIYed an unvented cylinder. It's just plumbing, as an old plumber once said to me "all you need to know to be a plumber is that SH*T stinks and P*SS runs downhill".
Appologies to all plumbers who will know doubt take offence, none intended.
Admitedly there is a bit more to an unvented system than that, but not a lot.
The thermal store in the brochure, under the TSS system is unvented. Fair enough if it's meant for storing solar heated water.
Chris
PS if you had read to the end of my msg. you would have been able to see what I want to do and the size of the house.
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Not so.

You have to be BBA approved to fit an unvented cylinder. Do it yourself by all means and if you have a burst, and when they go they really go with much damage, an insurance company will not touch you. With most you need an annual service. Once again, no service, no pay out.

He referring to drains then, which plumbers are good at. Heating appears to have flown past most of them.

Once again, a thermal store can be pressurised (unvented) and this has be fitted by a BBA approved fitter/plumber. There are vented thermal stores, the most common, and these can be DIYed.

What are you doing to the house? Do you want tanks out of the loft, the thermal store in the loft to make more space? ???
Go for a vented heat bank, not a thermal store, much better than an unvented cylinder.
http://www.heatweb.com http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (to th thermal storage)
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Not in this country. What is BBA?

I plan on fitting a Danesmoor diesel boiler, a 32/50 (or is it a 36/50? don't have the details to hand) heating an unvented mains pressure system suppling the kitchen, one bathroom downstairs, one upstairs. The boiler will also provide the heating via radiators.
There will be no tanks in the loft with an pressurized system, but that is not an issue as there is plenty of space.
I'm going with what I know and what is available locally. I was and am curious about the difference between the thermal store, heat bank, and unvented cylinder or indeed a vented cylinder. They all store hot water and seemingly there is not much difference. The insulation specs are similar the actual plumbing arrangement is similar.

I'll take a look. Chris
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Right I've been looking at the sites that you gave me and could see the difference at a glance, something that the brochure from Telford didn't (doesn't) show :-)
So in reality; what do you see as the practical day to day advantages of a thermal store system over a standard mains pressure cylinder?
What are the relative costs, in materials only?
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A heat bank:
- gives higher flow rates. - operates on low pressure. - can be DIYed. - eliminates inefficient boiler cycling, so cheaper to run. - Fast re-heat - does not have an air bubble that requires reinstating every year - does not require an annual service. - Can provide CH and DHW from the same cylinder - Can be packaged all in one unit (you just connect up pipes to the boiler and rads, with no design work involved) - Hot water temp at the taps user selectable - A heat bank does not scale up. - Can have electric backup for CH and DHW when using an integrated heat bank or thermal store.

A DHW only heat bank/thermal store is less than an unvented cylinder.
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Very interesting. I'm going to have to do more research on this. Sounds too good to be true. What are the disadvantages.?
Chris
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the
didn't
advantages
heat
with
Show us.
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wrote:

Did you contact them and find out?
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wrote:

recovery
They have a rig in their place that they allow customers to test. You can always go their and take measurements yourself.
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writes

Er, if the recovery times don't give the starting temp, what is there to show, logicboi?
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Stop trying to be know-it-all. In the UK you need to be BBA approved to fit a pressurised cylinder.

be
stores,
and
There is a big difference. A heat bank and thermals store instantly heat incoming mains water. The stored water is "primary" water and is heated by the boiler. It is the same water, generally, as the boiler water and will have inhibitor in it. A thermals store has an immersed coil and a heat bank uses a plate heat exchanger with higher flow rates.
Both thermal stores and heat banks can provide the CH from a flow and return taken off the bottom of the cylinder. These are called "integrated" stores. There are also DHW only stores and heat banks.
An unvented cylinder is similar to vented cylinder, except is used high pressure mains water, while a vented uses low pressure water from a cold water tank.
It is best you use a vented thermal store http://www.albion-online.co.uk (see the Mainsflow) or heat bank (see DPS or Range) as these can be DIYed. Some heat banks don't even need an overflow, so can be fitted in the centre of the house.
Range and Albion products are available from most plumbers merchants.

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Same to you. I don't live in the UK, check my eamil address. So not in this country is a fact!

Thanks for taking the time to explain that.
Now if I have the boiler downstairs along with the heat bank, and the CH is taken off the cylinder, which is unvented, I can't have radiators upstairs?
Can the radiators be feed from/through the heat exchanger? Or alternatively I guess you pressurise the storeage cylinder as for an unvented system?
Chris
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this
This uk.d-i-y. What country is fk? Falklands?

heat
will
DIYed.
is
upstairs?
With a vented the rads have to be below the heat bank, with an "unvented", or pressurised, heat bank the rads can be anywhere and the heat bank can be anywhere. Most have a vented heat bank on the first floor, which is above all rads.

If it is pressurised, then the rads can be taken off the bottom of the cylinder.
Best go for a DHW only heat bank or thermal store with a boiler heat transfer coil. Have the CH circuit pressurised. Then the heat bank can located anywhere and rads anywhere.
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IMM wrote:

Yes, which is UK overseas territory. As all our systems here are UK standards, and most products imported from the UK it makes sense for me to participate in a NG that is relevant to those standards and products.
You are participating in a NG that is open to the whole world, you shouldn't make sweeping asumptions that just because the title of the NG includes UK that all participants are located there. I've seen postings here from all over.
I don't see why I should state my location, as you suggest in another post. My question was what are the differences between certain products, not who or what should install them. Therefore the location is irrelevent.
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shouldn't
It is uk.d-i-y. the onus is on you to state you are not in the UK. The southern Ireland posters do that, and their standards in most things are not far off ours.
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Ok fair enough you have made your point, and point taken. But the onus is on you to answer the question and not to preach who can and can't install any system. The rest of your comments have been very useful.
Now I've been doing a fair bit of reading today, and thinking where I could put in an unpressurised heat bank. Might be able to squeeze one into the back loft, definitly could get anything in the main loft.
Does anybody do a design service? Or more to the point who does a good fair, unbiased, design service?
If I'm going down this route I would like to have at least a plan, if not a materials list, drawn up by a pro. As I will be importing almost everything, either because I have to or just to save costs, I would like to get it right.
Chris
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You responded with one liners and never explained. If UK regs don't apply to you it is up to you to say so. You were given the reasons why a DIYer can't install an unvented cylinder in the UK and a better alternative. That is not preaching.

The DPS sites give a load of on-line, and downloadable, design software. What you need is calculate the rad sizes, then this will give you the boiler size. Calulate the heat bank/thermal store size with the appropriate software on the DPS site. Then you can get a heat bank that has all the controls, motorised valves, elecrical box, etc in one package. Look at the DPS site for customers examples. All you need do is connect up the boilers flow and return and the radiator flow and return to the appropriate connections, the power, clock and the room stat. These can be pre-wired into the box and it is a matter of running a wire out to each component.
Then it is a matter of sizing up the CH pipes.

Firstly get kit which can be serviced with available parts where you are, and that locals can service. What is the most common oil boiler with parts available on the islands? Get one of these. Heat banks are simple and service free. The locals probably will not have heard of them, but the logic is easy to follow for even a dumb plumber. Unvented cylinders require pressure controls and if these go then you have no hot water and you need to source the parts and no hot water.
Try DPS as a first stop, I'm sure they have a design service. They may throw that in for free if you buy a simple heat bank from them. They will need a plan of your house. This probably can be on A4 paper, with room sizes, what type of walls and floors, windows sizes, single or double glazed, insulation levels, boiler location, heat bank location, etc.
A TIP: Go for an "integrated" heat bank, which provides CH and DHW, with a large backup electric immersion. If the oil boiler is down then electricity will heat the heat bank cylinder, and hence the house and hot water until the boiler is up. Essential in a part of the world where most parts have to be imported and may take time with long outage times.
Integrated heat banks are the only devices that give full CH/DHW backup.
Heat bank use standard heating pumps. I assume these are available on the islands off-the-shelf. They operate on flow switches, which probably are not available on the islands, so it may be worth your while ordering one of these as a spare, just in case.
Is all equipment British? Don't you import any from Argentina? If so are they local makes or imported Italian or Spanish?
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I thought you said that you had an Ideal combi boiler......

Why? If there is a problem with a simple thing like a heat exchanger in a box, a more complex assembly like a heatbank would be even more questionnable.

They used the Royal Mail...... :-)

GEA Ecobraze, which are a good product as long as they are in a suitable enclosure and properly packed......

In view of what I experienced, they are not on my recommended list. .andy
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