Re: Another toolkit question

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On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:35:48 +0100, Martin Angove

Could I be the first to wish you good luck?
Just one thing - do you have an electricians background in terms of apprenticeship? I did my 16th edition certification a short time ago, but although I'm a well qualified electronics engineer I'd not be able to describe myself as an electrician.
I was informed by some of the sparkies on the C&G2381 course that next year the government are introducing a corgi-type requirement for sparkies, and you can't get that certification unless you've served the time and done the courses.

Test equipment - RCD tester, earth leakage tester and a couple of others. That costs 500 pounds upwards.
When you carry out electrical work you are supposed to issue a certificate, even for minor changes. And you can only certificate something if you've tested it. And I expect next year the certificates will have to be issued by someone who is the equivalent of corgi registered.
Andrew
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Think you'll find public liability insurance more use there - niccy and eca registration are more of an old boys club. Don't think they have qualifications as such, acceptance is on inspecton of previous work and the paying of fees (suprise, suprise!). IEE or C&G 16th edition, Inspection and testing and electrical installation courses would be more valuable.

Membership of either trade association ain't gonna save your skin if you've been negligent.
Regards, Richard
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to join the NICEIC you have to prove that you meet their minimum requirements as regards qualifications, 16th edition, testing and inspecting, and either the city and guilds course or equivolent and provable experiance. along with 2miliion in public liability insurance. and be confident in your workmanship to allow an annual inspection of your work they choose the jobs they see.
loz

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And then you choose the restaurant, wine, 3 courses and which credit card to pay the bill...
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"Andy Milner" wrote | Sorry to be a killjoy but | the most important piece of equipment in your toolbox has got to be | NICEIC & ECA registration and qualifications otherwise one mishap | and you could be looking at compensation claim you'll never ever | afford
Neither NICEIC nor ECA membership can save you from risks which should be covered by liability and indemnity insurance (which is a pre-requisite for membership anyway).
| Two plumbers in Liverpool facing manslaughter charges after fire they | fitted killed owner of flat with carbon monoxide poisoning
Neither will NICEIC nor ECA protect you from criminal charges.
Owain
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"Frisket" wrote | > The only other question which is perplexing me is whether to buy 240V or | > 110V devices. | 110v kit and tranny will cover you for both domestic and industrial / | commercial otherwise you'll be laying out for the gear twice. Also, you'll | not be able to work on sites with 240v equipment. Whichever you go for | don't forget it will need to be PAT tested before you'll be allowed to use | it anywhere other than private dwellings (bloody health and safety raises | its ugly head again!)
All equipment will have to be inspected and PAT'd as H&S applies to to all Work, even if the Workplace is in someone's house.
PAT machines aren't expensive and it's a useful extra service to be able to offer especially if there is a lot of private rented housing, do the PAT and work your way in for some wiring jobs and vice versa.
Owain
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Hmmm... yes, hadn't thought about offering a PATing service. That's *another* bit of kit to buy! I used to do PAT at a previous place of employment, but I suppose that I should really add a PAT course to my list of things to do once I get going.
Are you sure though that it is *really* neccessary to PAT kit for domestic use? I've never noticed stickers on the kit of the tradesmen who've done work for me. I'd have thought that it'd be ok without, at least for the first 6 months or so.
On another note, it's interesting that only one person so far has actually offered an answer to my original question :-)
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove (it's Cornish for "Smith") - ARM/Digital SA110 RPC
See the Aber Valley -- http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/abervalley.html
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In what sense do you have to be "approved"? I have a sound electronics / physics background as did the manager who put me in charge of PAT. We both researched and understood the principles involved and worked to guidelines approved by the company's insurance company. As I understood it, that was as much as was neccessary - the insurers certainly never to my knowledge complained that I, as the person signing equipment as "safe", didn't have a particular piece of paper to my name; all they were concerned with was, was I "compentent", and had I understood the requirements.
The machine had a very good manual ;-)
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove (it's Cornish for "Smith") - ARM/Digital SA110 RPC
See the Aber Valley -- http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/abervalley.html
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wrote:

"Competence" appears to be the operative word with so many H&S things. There's no need to be qualified as such to PAT test - hence many of the firms offering the service use trained chimps (it really has to be one of the most mind-blowingly boring tasks in the electrical field) Richard
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"Frisket" wrote | There's no need to be qualified as such to PAT test - hence many of the | firms offering the service use trained chimps
<ook> As honorary public relations officer for Trained Chimps GB Ltd, may Ipoint out that trained chimps have high levels of intelligence, social skills and personal hygiene, and should not in any way be confused with lesser humans employed by many businesses these days. </>
Owain
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Sorry dude, no offence meant but I was trying to make the point that as things stand anybody can set themselves up for PAT testing... and some of my best friends are simian. Regards, Richard
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"Martin Angove" wrote | > All equipment will have to be inspected and PAT'd as H&S applies | > to to all Work, even if the Workplace is in someone's house. | Are you sure though that it is *really* neccessary to PAT kit for | domestic use? I've never noticed stickers on the kit of the tradesmen | who've done work for me. I'd have thought that it'd be ok without, at | least for the first 6 months or so.
PAT'ing isn't itself mandated AFAIK but is part of an overall safe system of work. As a tradesperson you have to follow a safe system of work wherever you work.
It's also not necessary for every item to be stickered. A business could have a centralised reminder system for calling in equipment for periodic inspection and testing, which would mean that the date of next test would not have to be on the equipment itself. It would of course have to have an asset number or other unique id.
Owain
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Good point. Two things. Firstly, as you say there doesn't seem to be any requirement for someone calling himself an "electrician" to have any kind of qualifications at all at the moment, other than Public Liability Insurance, secondly although my background is electronics, all my jobs have involved an element of light electrical work, and in my last job I was under the watchful eye of a time-served & certified British Steel electrician. I have also undertaken a reasonable amount of d-i-y electrical work so as well as the theory I know some of the practice.
Oh yes, and I've just done the 2381 as well :-)
The threat of registration as I understand it will put the NICEIC onto a similar footing as CORGI. This is my main reason for wanting to start as soon as possible: to be NICEIC registered you have to have been trading for 6 months minimum (used to be 12), have done the 2381 and 2391 and you have to be able to provide examples of your work for inspection. If I start now while NICEIC registration isn't a requirement, then when or if it does become so, I *should* be ready for it. I plan to do the 2391 while working. It's all built into the early-days spreadsheets.

Yes. I'm taking these "as read". I've seen a rather nice "all in one" kit for ukp700.

I quite like the certification concept. At first glance the forms in the back of the regulations look complicated, but they're really just good practice.
Thanks for your input!
Hwyl!
M.
--
Martin Angove (it's Cornish for "Smith") - ARM/Digital SA110 RPC
See the Aber Valley -- http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/abervalley.html
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:57:55 +0100, Martin Angove

I've been watching ebay recently. Some nice Robin testers have been going for 300-500 pounds. Second hand of course, but so long as they can pass muster with calibration then what the heck!

True. And as you've done or are going to do the 2391 then you'll presumably be able to fill them out authoritatively. ;)
Andrew
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:45:17 +0100, Martin Angove

Also a bit easier to pronounce than peiriannydd trydanol
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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wrote:

Silly, twisted, boy - you're sposed to drink it or catch a train from it, not per, per, per, per say it! ;O)
Take Care, Gnube
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<snip>

you'll always have a supply?
don't know if the big makitas have hammer only, though.

you'll be using this drill a *lot* - it's going to be a toss-up between how much you want to spend to get the best possible one, and the likelyhood of a really nice one going walkabouts. Have a look at Metabo and Milwaukee as well.

As long as the depth of cut is sufficient, this may be a good use for a cordless circular.

Henry. They're great. Or one of the more robust NVR200 ones.

Decent first aid kit in the van. Engraving kit to stick your name on everything?
A low set of step ladders, in addition to taller ones?
cheers Richard
-- Richard Sampson
email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
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"Martin Angove" wrote | > Engraving kit to stick your name on | > everything? | Thought of that one this afternoon. Already had in mind pre-printed | labels (nice long-lasting ones) but might consider a labelling machine | too. Properly engraved stuff would look much better, but do you think I | can get away with engraving every switch and socket? ;-)
No, but a nicely-engraved proper custom brass panel behind the telly with all the sockets for aerial in / out and surround sound shake-it-all-about looks so much better than a hodge-bodge of multiple faceplates and dyno tape.
If you are aiming at the kwolity end of the market of course.
Owain
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wrote ---8<---

I use the 'universal' or 'multipurpose' or whatever they call them drill bits Screwfix do with my (non-hammer) cordless. They're basically sharp masonry drills that go through without hammer action (and you can drill through wood or metal too - useful for fixing stuff to walls in one go).
---8<---

I use the jig more than the circ, but a woodcutting blade for the angle grinder is on my list (sure there was a thread about this recently - someone said don't get 'chainsaw' type blades, but I haven't been able to find anything)
---8<---

A handheld cordless vac that worked would be a boon ...
---8<---

I carry plasters, and tweezers (in Swiss Navy Knife) for getting out splinters and extra dioptre reading glasses so I can see while doing it (with the 5 headlight torch if need be)

I have one of those that double as step ladder or extension ladder - reach lofts but not much more, but haven't needed more (yet)
hth
-- John Stumbles -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ -+
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Martin Angove wrote:

Forget the list, and do it the simple way.
(i) Go in and gaze at all the things you might ever want.
(ii) Go and look at the first job. Buy from the above only what you absolutely need to complete it. Cost teh time and cost of getting these bits into that job.
(iii) Iterate the process for all the jobs you do, for ever. Every time the cost of a better tool is manifestly offset by the saving in time to do it, get the tool.
I have fauithfuly followed this process through all my D-i-Y, gatredening, hobby building and even comercial life as a company director, and it has proved to be the most cost effective way of getting the job done.
Example: I needed to clear abot 30 hawthorns, and had blokes standing idle on teh job. I bought a chainsaw. Out of teh budegt to clear the trees. Job done, one excellent chainsaw now only used for firewod and the odd job. Will last for years.
Example: Needed to get pulley of car engine. BIG nut, MUCHO torque, Bought huge torque wrench and exact size socket. Still cheaper than garage. Now have both (somewhere...?) Likewise hub pullers etc. Also impact drivers, and all sorts of other weird tools. They are cehpa enough at the time to make the job happen...

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