Rats!

[Andy Hall]

I've never seen bird tables outside Argos, Asda, Lidl, Netto or Aldi.

[Matt]

Yes, and It would justify building a patio extension to accommodate the memorial crypt (DIY of course)

[John Cartmell]

But treat just like a rat because John bo1lerdoc and friends were so stupid that they thought it was the same animal (well it was 'called' ratty so it must be ...)

[John]

I am completely aware of the difference between rats and water voles and if you weren't so eager to spout your agenda and actually read what I wrote it might have just occurred to you that I control vermin stealing food from my stock. As I said in my post water voles don't generally enter my buildings and chew their way into the feed store. Now please do try to read and understand English. If you can't try not to illustrate your ignorance quite so dramatically.

[John Cartmell]

It sounds like you are distinguishing between the two solely on where you happen to find them. Not good observational skills.

[Roger]

The message from John Cartmell contains these words:

snip

You are not painting a very pretty picture of yourself. You resort to meaningless insults because you don't have any rational argument to offer. Foxes and rats are vermin both in normal usage of our supposedly common language and as a matter of law.

Humans are competing for territory with the rest of the animal kingdom and differ only in that the rest of the species give no quarter when the chips are down. Of course our ancestors have made a mess of the planet and most of their descendants are bent on continuing the process but that after all is inherent in human nature. It is those who see animals as equal species with equal rights that are both out of step with the majority and a continuing danger to the rest of us. Those who would give rights only to the animals they think fluffy and cuddly (like the aforementioned Tony Banks) are nothing more than clueless hypocrites.

Knowledge that foxes feel pain has long been known but I doubt very much whether it has been proved that they feel the same intensity of pain that we do or indeed in the present climate it would be possible to determine that experimentally. Among humans there is apparently some evidence that not all types feel the same intensity of pain.

Anyone who thinks that the safety of animals is as important as the safety of children is obviously unbalanced. Comparing animal abusers with child rapists does rather give you away.

[John Cartmell]

[much snipped]

Last bit true. I know of no study that shows that anyone feels pain to the same extent as me (can be extended as a view for any human) nor that is capable of distinguishing between the pain felt by other humans and other mammals. You say you "doubt whether it has been proved ...". It hasn't. But that applies equally to all mammals including humans. I know of no way of distinguishing other than "this is my species" which is merely an extension of "this is my sex", "this is my nation", "this is my race" - with the implied follow on "and everything/one else is of lower worth".

[Snip]

You're conflating two ideas - and refer to the one that I didn't address. My comment intended to relate solely to the mindset of the perpetrator - not the victim. To repeat the statement:

Do think such people should be allowed in society without treatment or supervision?

This is separate from any legal sanction that you think might be appropriate to deal with those indulging in child abuse, animal cruelty, &c though society might wish to have one solution follow on the other.

NB It has been noted that child abusers, rapists, serial murderers, &c that take their pleasure from inflicting pain do sometimes begin by inficting pain on animals. It's what we allow them to get away with.

[John]

SNIP

In "your" opinion. Quite frankly I couldn't give a flying f*ck what the animal is - if its chewiing its way in to my buildings and stealing/polluting my stock feed and it isn't illegal to kill it then in my opinion it's vermin and I will do so (pity about some of the two legged vermin that prowl around at times). In the same vein if my grass fields are being burrowed by rabbits they get the same treatment. Hares, Pheasants and Partridges I shoot to eat. On that basis I am quite happy to have them on my land and forgive them a few transgressions Your opinion will not alter my approach, now run along and enjoy your urban lifestyle while I enjoy my rural one.

John

[Roger]

The message from "John" contains these words:

ISTR you mentioned Yorkshire. Whereabouts in GOC are you. (Roughly speaking, I wouldn't want to put the animal rights terrorists on your trail). I'm in rural Keighley BTW.

[John]

Lowland of the Ouse valley I have spent some enjoyable times up around your neck of the woods (baht 'at)