Pull Switch Madness

[mail-veil]

Apologies in advance for this rather lengthy story.

Before moving into our large bungalow just over a year ago I insisted that the vendor had a full electrical safety test carried out based on our surveyor's comments that the wiring in the attic was very untidy and looked as if circuits had been added without care.

Suffice to say that I found out it had cost the vendor £700 for the full test plus £300 for the bathroom and adjacent en-suite circuits to be made 'safe'. To achieve his perceived required level of safety he added pull switches for every appliance wherever they did not already exist (except for the 2kW occasional use down-heaters which already had FCUs). The result was something akin to a church belfry with pull switches for mirror light, heated towel rail, room light, extractor fan and pumped shower.

I want to get rid of this ugly (and confusing!) madness into a combined switch unit outside and above the bathroom door. Plus have proper wall switches for the lights (pull switches do sound through the ceiling and are rather ugly).

The power feed for this muddle gets worse when looking at the Consumer Units. There are two 1970s twelve-way Wylex units in the garage which is not accessible from within the house; one has a 30mA RCD and the other just a 100 MCB . The whole property is wired using multiple radials for the sockets and all circuits are in the attic.

The various appliances in the two rooms in question are powered from a multiplicity of RCDs spread across both CUs but one of the shower pumps is fed from a 40A MCB in the CU with the RCD and this is its only load! It is my plan for this MCB to be used to power everything (except the lights) via the combined switch unit mentioned above. Now to my actual questions:

1. Should the intended switch unit have its own RCD even though fed from a CU with one fitted?

1. Is there a consumer unit range that has a more pleasing appearance than the usual for use in view (there is no cupboard or space to hide it)?

2. Hiding two three-pole fan isolators is a challenge; any reason these should not be in the attic adjacent to each of the fans?

1. Short of a total rewire and updating of the consumer units are there any general helpful suggestions please? I have managed to future proof by sourcing multiple spares of all the circuit breakers and RCD.

Mike

[meow2222]

On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 6:12:41 PM UTC, [e-mail] wro te:

no

yes, they wont get used

Is the CU reorganise really needed?

NT

[alan_m]

I wonder about the wisdom of getting a seller to do the work before the sale goes through. The seller is likely to go for the cheapest/fastest option which may not always be the cosmetic option.

[rbel]

I have a (probably irrational) hatred of pull switches, so when we refurbed our bathroom I installed a double 10A switch in the hallway immediately adjacent to the bathroom door. One switch controls the lighting and the other the ventillation via an isolator in the loft.

[Roger Mills]

I wasn't quite sure how to interpret that.

Do you mean that not being able to use them easily is BAD, so this is a reason for not putting them in the attic

OR

They're unlikely to be used/needed anyway, so its ok to put them out of the way?

[meow2222]

they'll not be seen, be overlooked, and not be used as a result. Not ideal.

NT

[mail-veil]

Surely the only reson for using fan isolators is to work on the fan and the only access to the fan is in the loft so does it not make sense to have the isolator alongside it?

Mike

[mail-veil]

Having carried out his test and inspection the electrician effectively put a fail marker on the existing installlation of either no isolators or FCUs within Zone 2. Having the work done was not my choice but I am glad the vendor had to pay the total of £1000 and not me. Mike

[F Murtz]

Exaccerly, Isolating switches are usually for the sole purpose of isolating and therefore hardly ever get used.

[Tim Watts]

Did you buy a mansion?

An EICR IME is more like 150-250 depending in the SE.

[Andrew Gabriel]

If isolator is sufficiently distant not to be under the direct control of a person working on the fan, then the isolator has to be of a type which can be locked in the off position. Some of the 3-pole fan isolators can be locked off (using two tiny holes in the side of the rocker switch which you probably haven't noticed, to attach a lockout clip).

[js.b1]

Indeed, and this can cause some confusing instructions.

Some instructions mandate 3 pole isolator even for 2 pole (L-N) fans - bec ause they assume the bathroom size re Zones forces the isolator to be outsi de and outside the 2m / eyesight rule of any maintainer.

This can result in the error of putting L-N-E through a 3 pole switch which is wrong, the CPC should not be switched, but I have often seen it.

Nothing wrong with a Grid switch outside Zones controlling everything in it - for most people that does mean outside. However the other side of a door , beyond 2m / eyesight you ALSO need a lockable 3P switch even for a 2P fan . Caught out quite a few developers in London who had to dig up posh apartm ents.

[Tim Watts]

I never really understood that...

Working on a fan as an installed piece of equipment is so rare, turning off at the CU would seem perfectly reasonable (as you would if you replaced a dimmer switch).

Having an isolator *near* the point of use makes more sense in case the user needs to turn it off.

Is there any deeply interesting logic behind the IET's stance?

Mine will be humidistat controlled and therefore a 2 pole isolator will be sufficient (no connection to lights other than supply).

I'm planning to used a fused DP isolator seeing as fans invariably want a 3A fuse even on a 6A lighting circuit (another stupidity). My view is removing the fuse is good enough like most other fixed bit of equipment.

[Tim Watts]

Are you able to point me at the reg saying the isolator has to be lockable? Because I cannot find it - just been through section 701 which is the first place I thought it might be.

The other is 537.3.1.2:

"suitable means shall be provided to prevent electrically powered equipment from becoming unintentionally reactivated during mechanical maintenance, unless the means of switching off is continuously under the control of any person performing such maintenance."

However that could just as easily be satisfied by locking off the MCB/RCBO - same as working on any other item of fixed equipment.

I'm starting to detect urban myth - but I'm happy to be corrected.

[mail-veil]

It's a 2200 sq ft four bed bungalow with two powered outbuildings. Your figure Tim is what the electricians guestimated ... then they found out the complexity and lack of sensible marking of what each MCB was for and up went the price. I think two of them were here for four days! At least I know have the test certificates should we decide to move.

Something that caught me out (once!) was the powering of sockets with short spurs from the back of a socket in the adjacent room. Two of the three outlets in the dining room are like that and they are all on different radials so different MCBs too!

Mike

[mail-veil]

I have remembered why there is the need for a visible or lockable isolator; as well as electrical safety there is the potential for lopping fingers off when cleaning from the front. The short-term answer seems to be to leave the pull switch isolators on the ceiling (albeit ugly) but remove the cord and longer-term mount in its place a decent-looking isolator.

Mike

[js.b1]

That is generally what people read...

Manufacturers Instructions :-)

LABC have a habit of creating fake regulations out of thin air too, you just ask them for the BS7671 since that is the Named Standard and let them have a cissy fit. Not OSG, not whatever-scheme, BS7671. That is it.

MI *can* be disregarded where they are appear to be contrary bluntly to common sense. I still find it

Like the clause in Xpelair saying to be cleaned every month by a qualified electrician. Oddly enough I fit someone else's now...

[ARW]

That cert would make interesting reading (well to me). Any chance you can share a copy (with personal details removed of course).

[js.b1]

I believe DP isolation came about for 3 reasons... #1 - It may be a TT supply :-) #2 - Someone may be servicing the fan on a metal ladder from outside #3 - People are applying regs meant for industrial motors to domestic fans!

We need the IET to break apart BS7671 into industrial & domestic. Domestic being a code, with any deviations signed by a C&G spark, cheap inspections by a C&G spark to building code. The OSG is an attempt at a domestic building code, so why not do it properly.

All competent schemes abolished, get rid of that hysterical bunch of thieves. They are not necessary when people have C&G, it is a NONSENSE.

There would be fewer deaths, fewer fires, better education particularly re portable appliances which are still treated laissez faire (before we even think of electric chainsaws and no protective equipment, watched that panto before xmas cutting logs up).

[ARW]

Follow them to the letter and you do not have to switch the neutral.