Problem with a house purchase

[richard shaw]

I am currently in the process of trying to buy a house. There is some confusion over the boundary of the property and I would like to know the following:

(So far we have not been able to find an entry with the land registry)

1: If we can't resolve the issue can a property be sold with the dispute unresolved (ie is there a way that my solicitor or the sellers can draw up the contract so that we might be able to challenge the boundary later)

2: Can anyone suggest a way to find detailed plans for properties like this (which I think only has a index type plan). My solicitor has done what she can.

Any help gratefully received.

Mark

Apologies if this is in the wrong group

[Colin Wilson]

Ordnance Survey maps as licenced by the utility companies will often have the boundarys marked, but i`m not sure how far they might stand up in court.

They`re usually vector based and can be zoomed and scaled pretty accurately which might help to determine the true boundaries.

Perhaps you could ask one of the utility co`s for a set of plans showing where their equipment is as you "plan to start digging in the area"

[stefek.zaba]

The Land Registry website has a pretty good brochure on boundaries, maps, plans, and boundary disputes. From memory, its gist is that the boundary as visible on the ground *is* the boundary, as that gives evidence of accepted practice over a period of time. A plan even drawn at 1:500 scale doesn't give all that much accuracy even in theory (1mm on the plan means

500mm of 'real', or a little under two of your English feets ;-), and they're not drawn as authoritative to-scale engineering references anyway - but rather to record either intent (in the case of a plot being built on or subdivided) or those facts-on-the-ground (in the case of a later mapping survey).

The OS will do you a customised large-scale plan of a chunk of land of your choice, at (again from memory) 1:500 in urban areas, lower in rural ones. But (to repeat myself) such a map shows where the survey team believed a visible boundary to run when they were last in the area (these days supplemented with aerial photography, I believe), not some mythical 'proper boundary': the latter is often described in words in the deeds which refer to 'stable' features.

But don't believe anything I tell you: hie thee off to the LandReg website and read what they have to say.

HTH - Stefek

[Peter Fox]

Following on from richard shaw's message. . .

Silly old me but why not get practical and (a) Tell the seller you can't buy with this unresolved (b) Get them to arrange a site meeting with all the parties (c) Sort it out there and then

You /could/ get the seller to take out an insurance policy to cover them for selling you something that wasn't theirs to sell. That's an awkward bit of hassle for them and pressure to get them to do (b).

BUT Don't forget you can always approach the adjoining _owner_ directly yourself. A couple of phone calls and you're there. After all you're about to move in next to them so now might be a good time to introduce yourself and show you're practical, business-like, and keen to solve problems. Doing it this way is pretty hassle-free from your point of view unless you particularly want that strip of land very badly. You and next door agree, shove in a couple of stakes if necessary (with measurements from FIXED points to stop silliness + a memo signed by both of you noting your agreement [1] until a formal note can be drawn up.) and then the person selling to you has to go with the flow and you adjust your price accordingly.

It is up to the seller if they want to join in to fight their corner. You don't _need_ them there when you negotiate between yourself and neighbour 'cos you have the full extent of their claim which they will have let you have as prospective purchaser and you have _your_ agenda which may not be theirs.

[1] You're just agreeing between neighbour and yourself that if you purchase the property that's the boundary you will recognise. You obviously can't commit the seller to it but soon they'll be history. The agreement gives you security and if the seller (say) won't adjust their price accordingly then you go elsewhere.

[Richard Savage]

Regarding point 2:

This is the URL for the Land Registry doc about boundaries:

it doesn't tell you very much.

When you say that you haven't been able to find an entry at LR do you mean that your property is unregistered? Is the property sharing the boundary registered? If so when? The approach would be to tend to trust the boundary of the registered property over the unregistered one. Doubts can be resolved by surveying, either by LR or Ordnance Survey.

The Title Plan will be based on the OS map at 1:1250 scale if in an urban area or 1:2500 or more in a rural area. So getting a 1:500 plan will not increase the accuracy of the information.

Regarding point 1: I would suggest that if your vendor is that anxious to sell they should resolve the dispute before you exchange. Is the property so attractive that you want a problem from the outset? Boundary disputes almost never benefit both parties. Having said that, the 2002 Act changed the position regarding the acquisition of land by adverse possession. It does also sound as though your solicitior is not earning her money. If you wish I will ask SWMBO (commercial solicitor) what her appraoch would be.

BOL Richard

[Michael Chare]

It might be worth while trying to find out who else might own the land and coming to an agreement with them.

Have there been any planning applications which might show (but not prove) the boundary.

Try uk.legal

Michael Chare

[Kalico]

Some good ideas there Peter.

The first thing that sprang to my mind, apart from your need to try to resolve, is that this gives you a massive lever to get the vendors to lower the price. I have used this before and got thousands off the sale price when in fact, I wasn't too fussed if things went against me later.

Just some thoughts but remember that any problem that your solicitors have flagged up would also be found by anyone else that might want to buy the place, so the sellers have to face the problem and if they are keen to sell may lower the price to get shot of it.

Rob

[Peter Crosland]

Start here

[T.]

Why.....My neighbour is derived from hell and because he bought his property thinking the boundaries were his and I showed him the deeds saying the boundaries belong to me - he is a pain. His latest prank is to try and grow a toilet pan in his side of the hedge.....Take advice from the wise get any boundary despute settled before parting with any money.

[Peter Crosland]

agree that it needs sorting BEFORE contracts are exchanged.

[Neil Jones]

I particularly liked the section on DIY burial - very much on topic :-)

Neil

[Brian S Gray]

Apart from the worries about the actual boundary, why cannot you find an entry at the Land Registry? Have your solicitors asked and been told there is not one? Unless the sellers have been in the house quite a long time their purchase of it should be in the Land Registry. One friend of ours nearly lost his purchase because the previous owner had not had his purchase registered and effectively did not have power to sell until the omission was rectified (much hassle!!)

[Richard Savage]

Lack of registration is not a bar to sale. For example, a large number of properties in Wales are unregistered. Compulsory registration did not come into force there until 1975 IIRC whereas in Kent compulsory registration has been in force for much longer. Until then it was perfectly OK to convey and charge unregistered properties. After all, that is how things worked perfectly well before the 1925 Act creating Land Registry.

However, an inability to show Good Title is a bar to sale.

If you convey or charge (or do a few other things to) unregistered land in an area subject to compulsory registration your vendors solicitor simply has to supply LR with a slightly different paperwork and documentary evidence of title along with the conveyance or charge. Quite simple.

What happened in your friends transaction?

Rgds Richard

[Brian S Gray]

I do not know the details, but I understood that it was touch and go as to whether the sale would go through. Before seeing Richard's comment, I thought that my friends had had to trace the previous owner to confirm that the title had been transferred as Land Registry had the house registered in their name. I will make more enquiries when I next see them.