Party Wall notice: Advice sought on surveyors

[JL]

My mother was sent a letter today from the local council who own the other half of her semi-detached house. The letter refers to the Party Wall act section 6, 1996. It states:

"We are proposing to carry out a mini auger recinforced concrete piled raft foundation system throughout the ground floor of number xx together with refurbishment of the property on completion.

The works proposed are as depicted on the enclosed plan and you may feel you can concur with these being carried out without the preparation and agreement of a formal "Party Wall Award". In such circumstance we would compile a schedule of conditions, with your agreement, of the areas adjacent to the party wall, together with supporting photographs, as a record of the existing defects in your property.

If you feel your interests would be better served by the preparation of a formal award, then you may nonetheless concur with the appointment of a third surveyor, who will impartially regulate matters affecting us both."

I guess many of you have received similar "Party Wall notices", but its the first time I have encountered one. Would it be sufficient to go with the councils record of the condition of the house, or should we go for a "formal award"? What would we need to do from our our side if we ask for a "formal award"? Would we need to find and hire the "third surveyor" (their wording). I think that they must mean a third party surveyor.

The house is ex-council, built on very heavy clay and is about 50 years old. My mothers house has a number of cracks in the internal walls which have been there for decades. They just decorate over them. I don't think the party wall has any significant cracks.

[SmileyFace]

The building next door to me was demolished some years ago, turning my then terraced house into a semi. Though the Council didn't own the property, they dealt with demolition and pre-works survey.

They sent round a *snotty* surveyor, who searched out anything remotely substandard in that area at the outset so when the work was over they could - and did - claim any damage was pre-existing.

When the damage was *not* confined to the party wall [i.e. ceilings shoved out of whack, windows that wouldn't open etc.], they pointed to their "survey" and said "we're only interested in *this* bit".

So I'd advise you to photograph other areas yourself; walls at right angles to the party wall, ceiling angles to the walls and anything else you might think of. If you have a digital camera, it won't cost a bean unless you print them. If you don't have one, now might be a good time to buy one.

A good idea, but still keep an eye on things and, most important, *take your own photographs*, over time too. Keep a written record of any remarkable events. You may have to become quite annoying if there is any problem. I hope there won't be, though.

I suspect they missed the "party" as LAs so often do. I didn't have to hire the structural engineer who supervised the repairs but there was another party involved in my case with whom I liaised. Might be worth checking with your buildings insurer. You shouldn't have to *pay* when you're gaining nothing IMHO.

Get photos of all the internal cracks before work starts. Keep an eye open for any developing while it goes on. The works may cause no problems, and I sincerely hope that's the case, but it's best to be prepared.

It took a long time to sort out the mess my place was left in. In my favour was that the *other* semi [untouched by the actual work] developed cracks too. And a piece in the local newspaper after two years.

Sorry to sound like the Prophet of Doom. But I wish I'd been a bit more savvy.

HTH

[Rick Dipper]

And the best way to "date" the photos, is to burn them to CD, put in envelope & post. Then don't open the letter. The postmark acts as a date.

Rick

[Andy Burns]

It doesn't prove the date at all. What is to stop you posting an empty, unsealed envelope to yourself, inserting the CD at a later date and then sealing it?

[Tony Bryer]

You have the right to appoint your own surveyor whose reasonable fees should be paid by the person doing the work. If you do, the first thing the two surveyors should do is to agree on a third surveyor: in my very limited experience of these things some years back we agreed that the third surveyor should be "someone nominated by the President of the RICS" (he delegates this to a department). In 99% of cases the third surveyor is never involved: they are there to act as an arbitrator if the two surveyors cannot agree. Your surveyor will draw up a schedule of condition of the relevant parts of your property (with photos as necessary) and the other surveyor will be asked to agree it before any work is done. It's 100% better than just taking your own photos and trying to prove their validity at a later date.

[Lee]

Used to be suggested that sending it registered was deemed sufficient proof, since the PO would check it was sealed and stamp over the "openings". Don't know if it's still the case.

Lee

[Lee]

With whatever service they replaced registered with.

[Andy Burns]

To prove a date on something, I think you need to lodge it (or possibly have it sealed) by someone reputable, I wouldn't include the PO in that category.

I recently had a registered delivery disappear back into the system after PO initial delivery attempt, their "please collect" postcard was the only evidence I had that it even existed, for a week they didn't know where it was, eventually they did phone to say it had re-appeared, I went to collect it, just in case ...

[Andy Burns]

Thought it was _still_ registered delivery?

[Rob Morley]

Special or Recorded Delivery, there's no "Registered" any more.

[Lee]

I'd be inclined to leave a lot of lawyers out of that category as well ;) Though I suppose that's the accepted thing to do.

Lee

[chris_doran]

ISTR reading somewhere that digital photos aren't acceptable in a court of law -- perhaps someone can confirm? Court-wise or not, I can see the Council surveyor pointing out it's all too easy to draw cracks on or wipe 'em out.

Chris

[sd]

[Googolplex]

Eh? What does this prove?

Post an empty unsealed envelope to yourself now, then take photos whenever you like and put them in the envelope and seal it.

[Set Square]

You *could* send it by Special Delivery, using an envelope provided by the Post Office. They won't accept it unless it's sealed, and it can't be opened non-destructively.