Part P & Showers

My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved

10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?

Thanks

John

Reply to
John
Loading thread data ...

There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work has been carried out.

Kev

Reply to
Uno Hoo!

Pretty much. Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far as domestic electrical work is concerned now!

The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not considered to be notifiable. The Electrickery gurus around here might know if there has been any further clarification on this, though.

Reply to
RichardS

I think you're right on that like for like swapping Mr S, and this is only because the installation never had a problem with a load of the size you already have. That's as long as the original installation has already been inspected by a qualified person first of course.

Reply to
BigWallop

It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.

Peter Crosland

Reply to
Peter Crosland

Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC.

Reply to
Stickems.

Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?

Reply to
John

">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but

I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.

Peter Crosland

Reply to
Peter Crosland

By the book that would have to be the exact same model, which is not being made anymore,I expect. What you do next will depend on

1) How much of a jobsworth you are. 2) ... the customer is. 3) Whether any other notifiable work is taking place. 4) How confident you are that nothing will every go seriously wrong.

The 6mm cable under the ideal installation conditions could take over 40A so it could be protected by a 40A MCB. Which gives 9.2kW @ 230V (if the shower is specified @230V) or 9.6kW @240V (if the shower is gven at 240V).

However if the cable is anything other than surface clipped it falls to

38A thus protected by 35A breaker etc.
Reply to
Ed Sirett

Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.

Not all electricians work on domestic properties, the vast majority working on public\commercial\industrial properties are more than qualified and experienced to do such work, and more likely to be better at doing the job than the vast majority of house bashers who some-how gain the Part P approval.

The whole thing was setup to keep the electrical contractors happy as they were desperate to get their hands on the domestic market for electrical installations.

The commercial\industral companies would have put the government pressure to forget such a hopeless law, on various grounds, financial being one.

The worse thing about this law has already atarted to show it colours as people start to see how much they have to pay for a electrician with Part P, they will ask a electrician who can do the work and he will pass them off as he doesn't want to end up in court.

So they will decide to do it themselfs with out any sort of guidance. This means the installation will not be installed by anybody who is competent, and instead we will end up with the worst of all worlds.

To answer your question one person who is known as two jags or two jabs and the department of the deputy prime minister was behind this hopeless law.

J
Reply to
John_ZIZinvalid

You ask several questions. Attempting to answer them in sequence.

[snip intro about shower]

Be SURE of your cable sizes, if necessary obtain a short length of 6mm and compare it. The current carrying capacity of 6mm depends on many factors but 32 amps is an "almost certainly safe" rating for it. The length limitations are basically all to do with voltage drop, and for a shower, and over less than a 50m run of cable, it shouldn't be an issue.

Try taking the cover off (*with the mains off, and make sure you put it back properly*) The KW rating will likely be stamped on the heating chamber somewhere, along with its voltage rating and other pertinant information, again, be entirely *sure*

Legally I am not sure because frankly part P is a disaster area, they wrote it in haste. The likely answer is NO, you can't legally do it because it's in a 'special area' or whatever the wording is.

If he has the money, consult a sparky, you may be able to do all the hard work, thus saving the guy money, and have the spark hook it up etc etc. Be aware, it's likely to need an RCD, which may not be on the circuit now, plus, a straight changeout like this should also be accompanied by a detailed examination for loose terminals at the switch, overheating, cable damage, and so forth.

As others have said further down this thread, electric showers are potentially incredibly dangerous, I find it amazing that in a country that frowns on lightswitches in bathrooms, you're allowed a 32 or 40 amp 240 volt circuit IN the shower area!

That being said, certainly take a look at the existing unit, inside and out, try to determine its rating and so forth.

Apologies if any of this sounds 'bleeding obvious' or patronizing, I just like people to cover all bases when it comes to electricity, I've seen more near misses than I want to.

Reply to
Chipmunk

To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the number over the last year was 5.

Yes just 5.

Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the setting up.....the advertising......the training... the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost in courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers etc. A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.

And to save 5 lives ?

The cowboys will carry on as usual........... The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for their "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce road accidents"..................so lets have some more.

Its madness............

First the plumbers Now the electricians Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini cab drivers? Hospital cleaners?? they can all kill you if they dont do their job right ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more jobs for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!

just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!

Barry

Reply to
bs

Its not my neighbour. You should learn to follow attribution of threads

I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances and flexes are the real culprits

Having a paper qualification from an accredited body may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on the job being done properly or the safety of the fitting of a replacement for the existing unit. I suggest you are the one who should stop being an idiot and wake up to reality. Being a professionally qualified Electrical Engineer, even one who teaches the "electricians" of tomorrow is not accepted by the fat buffoons department as being competent to carry out domestic work but somehow is acceptable for commercial and industrial work, power transmission and distribution, generation etc. Sense? there isn't any!

Reply to
John

In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to get to do it is a 'professional'.

Kev

Reply to
Uno Hoo!

Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.

;-)

Reply to
Martin Evans

Old saying I heard some years ago - The Titanic was built by professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs.

You choose.

;-))

Steve

Reply to
shazzbat

If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up the fridge door to the mains.

Reply to
shazzbat

That would make a real earth of him. :-) Well, he's been making an earth of us for long enough, hasn't he?

Reply to
BigWallop

One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find any record on the net anymore, but a news item was available at the time at

formatting link
is another reason for not using short URLs.)

The shower was professionally installed not that long before the incident. The victim had commented on getting electric shocks from it before, but didn't seem to have done anything about it. Incredibly, the contractor who installed the shower was called in to investigate what was wrong with it, so the investigation report would be worthless. My comment at the time was that this would be like asking Jarvis to investigate the Potters Bar rail crash.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

Surely you don't believe the DPM personally make this decsison? Where is the political mileage in that? It was more likely some jobs worth civil servant who gets jollys/kickbacks from the elec industry. maybe even "retired" and working for them now.. It does happen, I've seen it with my own eyes. Senior civil servant to preferred vendor .. "would you care to persue this quote from your competitors while I'm out of the room"

Reply to
OldBill

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.