Part P and replacements confusion

[Let me Think]

I have seen references to my questions in earlier posts and looking at the odpm site this is now even more confusing

The url on the odpm site I am looking at is

seems to me conflicting information.

My reading of the odpm site says

"

You do not need to tell your local authority's Building Control Department about:

repairs, replacements and maintenance work; or

a.. extra power points or lighting points or other alterations to existing circuits (except in a kitchen or bathroom, or outdoors)." There is also no requirement of a part P certified Peron required to do this work.

So basic questions are

Can I legally

Replace components for example

Light switch

Socket

Cooker

Shower

Outside light

Can i also add additional sockets or lighting points with out a certified personel.

If the answer is no where does this get stated on the odpm site ?

Thanks

[John]

Did you really expect any sense at all from a department headed by two chins?

[Andy Hall]

Only two?

[Bob Eager]

Has anybody else noticed the similarity between:

1) Prescott; conical shaped head, baddie, teeth... 2) Preston[1]; conical shaped head, baddie, teeth... [1] See "A Close Shave"

[dave stanton]

Just do it.

Dave

[Sadly]

TM

[Dark Angel]

I'll tell you what I know.

Yes

Yes

Not sure

Not sure

Not sure

Yes, as long as they're being added to an existing circuit (ie you're not putting in a new circuit for them) and as long as these additional new lights, sockets aren't in a kitchen, bathroom or outside.

Specific questions on what you can or can't do can be answered by your council's building control office, however I would take the advice given to you by the others here and just go ahead and do it.

[Fred]

My understanding is that you can add circuits anywhere as long as they are not in a bathroom or kitchen or outside building.

Even within these areas you may replace any item without informing building control. You may also replace any wiring as long as it follows the same route as the original.

I may well be wrong but this was my interpretation last time I read them.

[Ed Sirett]

Agreed.

Agreed.

Yes if its a replacement. By the book this probably has to mean the same model and manufacturer, arguably it would have to at least be the same type of appliance with the same intended use, location and power consumption.

As per cooker. Note that this means upgraded the power is now illegal but it won't stop those who need stopping. This year I was called to two sites where the 32A MCB kept tripping on a 44A shower. (Went for just over 4 minutes before tripping).

As per cooker and shower.

My advice is that credibility in the rule of law is fast being eroded from several directions. Firstly, do things right and legally when possible. It is now illegal to install an extra socket in a kitchen even if done by an experienced industrial electrician. It is now illegal to read out names of people in some public places. It is now illegal to go carol singing in some public places.

It's not that these things are necessarily highly desirable to do but some people wish to sing carols and some people wish to wire their own homes.

[Martin Angove]

[...]

You can't *add circuits* anywhere (i.e. provide a new circuit) without either getting it done by a self-certifying blokie or getting Building Control involved. However you can, so long as it isn't in a kitchen or other "special location", add further outlets (lights, sockets etc.) to an *existing* circuit.

Essentially correct, and allows for you to fit, for example, that new chandelier you'd always wanted in place of the 6" pendant. However note that in Part P you are only allowed to replace wiring without notifying, if the wiring you are replacing has been damaged. Not sure why...

Hwyl!

M.

[Tim S]

Agree 100% with Ed. I'll add:

and some people wish to replace their windows or a vented HW cylinder, which doesn't even carry the tenuous argument of safety that Part P tries to justify itself with (yes, I accept that some upstairs windows must serve as fire escapes and some window frames are part load bearing).

Ed: remember when you mentioned a few weeks ago that new vented HW cylinders had a commissioning sticker on them? Well, I made a point of looking when I was browsing in Bodgit Quick the other day. See what you meant. The tick boxes weren't exactly rocket science, especially as there was a pretty picture of how to connect it and max head data etc clearly displayed.

Mind you, I'd be damned if I sign one myself on a DIY install, as there was a rather open ended paragraph about making sure that all building regs were adhered to. These things may come back to haunt... What utter silliness.

Cheers

Tim

PS. I often wonder, given that the PR of China is slowly (very slowly, but it is) softening, and Britain is rapidly heading towards a Police State, how long it will be before the curves cross... Time this current lot were gone.

In a few years, you'll all be needing RFID chips in yer number plates (really, was on the DVLA website recently, trials happening now), your biometrics will be required to be logged with GOD (Great Orwellian Database) and, heaven help you if you're arrested, even without charge, your DNA gets sampled and held right now.

Hang on, someone's knocking on the door...

[Martin Angove]

[...]

Yes - for example to fit a fancy brass one instead of white plastic.

Yes - ditto.

AFAIAA this doesn't come under Part P as it is an appliance, and Part P only applies to the electrical installation (i.e. the fixed wiring).

Difficult one. In many ways it is analogous to the cooker above; the shower is an appliance and as such possibly doesn't come under Part P. However it is very common to find that your old shower is 7.5kW and protected by a 30A rewireable fuse on 6mm2 cable and yet your new shower is 8.5kW (or more) and the instructions insist that a rewireable fuse is not acceptable. You are therefore likely to find yourself not only replacing the appliance, but also changing the protection on the circuit and the latter most certainly would be notifiable under Part P as you would need to ensure that the cable is suitable and that the disconnection times can be met. You should also ensure that the main and supplementary bonding is up to scratch, and supplementary bonding in a bathroom is also notifiable under Part P.

Consensus of opinion seems to be that if the light is fed from an existing circuit (e.g. fused spur from your ring main) and is fixed to the external wall of the house with the cable entering (reasonably) directly into the fitting then this would be non-notifiable.

Yes, so long as you are not providing a new circuit (i.e. you are doing it by spurring or by inserting in the ring) and it isn't in a kitchen or other "special location" (see Table 2 on p8 of Part P).

Again, consensus seems to be that Part P is rather badly worded and open to a certain amount of interpretation. The above is the position as I understand it at present, but I'm willing to be corrected if someone has more up-to-date information :-)

Hwyl!

M.

[david lang]

If the outside light cable finishes with a 13 amp plug and is simply plugged in, I assume that's legal even in a kitchen?

Dave

[Martin Crossley]

And wire it to the existing twin-without-earth cable, possibly with now crumbled rubber which once served as insulation when it was new, back in the mists of time, because cables can only be replaced, when damaged (deliberately or not) with like? There's progress for you. Martin.

[Doctor Drivel]

No.

[Doctor Drivel]

You replace sockets type for type. white plastic for chrome.

[Doctor Drivel]

A friend of mine has a house that had a loft conversion well before he bought it. Common sense would say extend the upstairs ring or install a new one for the extension. The power to the three rooms up there was taken from behind one of the socket on the first floor, spurred. A whole raft of sockets were daisy changed together off one 2.5mm cable from behind one socket. Two 3 kW heater could have been off the one 2.5mm cable (under heat retaining insulation) and the main 32A mcb would not have tripped. the cable would just have heated up, maybe causing a fire. Part P is GOOD thing!!!! It will stop this sort of cowboy crap.

The sooner we go to the continental radial circuits instead of this ring mains crap the better. Ring mains are far more open to abuse.

[Doctor Drivel]

Are you sure on that? Cable is fine just a the protection upgraded. Screwfix say: Extra power points or lighting points, or other alterations to existing circuits. (they say in their mag this is OK)

[Let me Think]

Thanks for all the answers.

It seems that Part P is now not as bad as it originally seemed (am i right or it is just beter understood), I remember reading the posts which said that non Part P personnel could touch any house electrics (even if they were an industrial electrician). This point just went to prove in my mind how badly the regulations were thought out, and could even have pointed to some thing fishy going on.

.

I agree with part P to stop cow boys, but to stop people who understand electrical work in their own home is stupid. This is not another stealth tax it is? Surely not ;)

One poster mentioned that the part P seems to have been eroded, and I remember posts earlier this year where part p was described/admitted (cant remember which was) as seriously flawed.

So in the past year (almost) of part P, has it worked?

If not will the government rethink and adjust it to be more suitable? Or should I say will a non Tony Blair government do that

[Doctor Drivel]

Yep. Anyone can work on industrial/commercial. Domestic men have to be certified. Dangerous poor quality cowboy work was predominantly in the domestic sector, with know-it-all Jack-of-all-trades builders doing the lot. Kitchen fitters are notorious for shoddy dangerous wiring.

Unfortunately when you make a law a small minority tend to loose out, for the greater good of all.

Yep. Trades people now farm out the electric work they used to do to electricians.

No change of government will change Part P. This is not party political as it was coming for a long time. Once Gorgi was tightened up electrical had to follow.