Outside lights

I would like to replace my current outside light with one or more powerful ones. I want to power them from a fused outlet from the downstairs sockets ring main and currently the outside light is on the downstairs lights circuit. However I would like to use the current light switch to switch them.

My concern is that someone in the future (including myself on a dosey day) will switch off the lights circuit at the CU and be surprised when they find a live feed to the light switch in the kitchen. The light switch is a double switch that switches the outside light and the kitchen light.

One solution I have come up with is to use, what I would call, a power relay that is powered by the lighting circuit, but switches the fused outlet from the sockets ring main.

My questions are two fold:

Is it OK to have a light switch in the kitchen that is fed from both the lights circuit and sockets circuit and if not, what exactly am I after in terms of 'a power relay' ?

Any help gratefully received

Pete Henley

Reply to
Pete Henley
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Could you not replace the switch with a switched FCU from the ring?

Reply to
Ric

You presumably don't have the capacity in your lighting circuit? What are you putting in - a 1kW halogen spot light? What's your circuit rating currently?

Well thought of. Tricky. Technically one should never assume a circuit is dead until proven so, irrespective of what's been turned off at the CU. But a little consideration is not harmful. I'm not upto date on the IEE regs so I can't give an authoritative answer here.

Don't know. I did a bathroom mirror light off an old fused/switched spur downfused to 5A that used to be for the (useless) heated towel rail. But I had no way of accessing the lighting circuit anyway, without ripping the ceiling to bits (stupid cheap newbuild flat).

That passed an electrical safety inspection by Seeboard during the sale, without comment, and this is where the inspector noted that lack of an earth wire to the all-plastic ceiling light switch in the bathroom (which

*did* have an earth terminal bonded in the plastic base doing exactly b*gger all).

No I didn't "fix" it...

Start with RS/Farnell. Look for DIN mounted contactors - you may find one that will either neatly fit in your CU[*] or can be mounted in a little plastic DINrail box next to it. I would guess (and I'm *not* certified to say so) that either the contactor will have to have a contact rating for both resistive and reactive loads of >=32A (as it's immediate supply will be fused thusly) or you create a short fused spur with a breaker just before the contactor (check the regs on this - look up everything to do with ring main spurs!)

It's not bomb proof because a) the contacts might weld; b) I'm not sure if a contactor is considered a suitable isolation device (probably not).

Educated theories with caveats only from me, sorry.

Timbo

[*] Watch that you don't compromise safety by leaving any finger sized gaps over metal parts etc.
Reply to
Tim

Personally, I'd just put the two circuits in the one box. Happens all the time with stairway circuits. You could stuff a warning label inside warning of multiple points of isolation. I wouldn't bugger around with relays for this.

Christian.

Reply to
Christian McArdle

With regards to the dual fed light switch in the kitcken the answer is no, If you are going to feed the outside light from a seperate circuit, then you myst keep them seperate, commonly called discrimination of circuits. If you are going to install a fused connection unit to supply the outside light then you can pick up from the ring in an unswitched fused connection unit (Spur) wire in T&Cpc cable to a double pole switch from which you can supply your outside light.

The seeboard inspector was right, see reg 601-04-01 in BS7671:2001. All circuits contained within the special installation i.e. bathroom must be cross bonded, so there should have been a cpc in the plastic ceiling switch base.

Also better get all diy electrical work done before January 2005 when BS7671:2001 combines with the building regs which will result in part p of the building regs, it will be like corgi, an offence to carry out your own household electrics, one way around this is to notify building control of your intention to carry out electrical works and they may come and inspect.

In case you are wondering, I am a JIB approved technician, I now spend

8 hours a day carrying out wiring inspections. If you need further explaination then let me know.....
Reply to
Peter

Yes - that makes sense. I hadn't actually registered fully on the bit where OP said both circuits are present in the same wall box. Now I have more time to re-read todays postings, it's more obvious...

I wonder if the terminal is there in case you need to loop an earth through the switch housing onto a metal light fitting? Otherwise it really was an ultimately useless terminal - not even the little metal screws for the cover had any connection with it.

Common sense pervading, I added a covering note to the report agreeing that the Inspector was presumed to be correct by the regs, but that it was so utterly pointless that I had no intention of doing anything about it. Buyer didn't complain and even the solicitors passed it by without comment. May have added that I was a BSc (Physics) - solicitors haven't yet cottoned on to that generally being a bad thing ;->

Not even a practising physicist anyway - I'm actually a programmer, so we're really at the bottom of the barrel for electrical competance now.

(joke, people!)

I think everyone knows what I think about that >:< But it's fair advice nonetheless.

Although I wasn't aware that it was an offence - I was under the impression that retrospective certification was always an option. Am I wrong?

You should inspect my work place - neutral fell off a dist board the other week. Re-aligned itself a considerable way away from the phase that was supplying some PCs. First time for a long time I've seen a PSU rendered almost completely into charcoal. Aluminium conductor apparantly. Still, it made a change from worrying about the asbestos.

Timbo

Reply to
Tim S

Of course you're right, I hadn't realised that the same situation exists in two of the light switches in my house (upstairs and downstairs are on different ways in the CU and we have two way switching for both landing and hall).

A question for Peter, I know the above occurs in many houses, does this break the 'discrimination of circuits' rule ? also do you have any thoughts on using a power relay ? The light switch would then be 'dead' when the lights were turned off at the CU, but the power relay (would be on the wall in the garage) would still have lights and ring connections, so I suppose that breaks discrimination of circuits.

In reply to Ric (and others), the existing two gang light switch already switches the outside light and the kitchen light and I really want to use the existing light switch to switch the new powerful outside light(s), so I can't simply use a (switched) fused spur where the existing light switch is.

In reply to Tim, I have just calculated my current full load and was a bit suprised......

11x60W (1 dining room, 2 lounge wall lights, 5 lounge central lights, 3 kitchen central lights) plus 3 small strips (2'), say 100W total (under kitchen cupboards) 5 halogen, say 100W total (edges of kitchen ceiling over worktop) 5 other lights, all energy savers, say 100W total (hall, porch, outside, 2 in garage) 1 large strip (4'), say 50W (garage) TOTAL 1010W about 4.2A Currently fused at 6A - now you can see why I want to power the new powerful outside lights from the ring.

Many thanks for you help and advice and please keep it coming

Thanks

Pete Henley

Reply to
Pete Henley

Hmmm. I thought the legislation stated that major domestic electrical changes, or any change in a bathroom or kitchen had to be either carried out by a member of an approved body or subject to buildings regs process. And that retrospective approval is an option. For smaller works such as changing a socket, adding an outlet to a ring, etc DIY is still ok.

And you've perpetuated the myth that it is illegal for anyone other than a CORGI reg'ed person to do gas works. Which isn't true. Any "competent" person can do gas works, providing that it is for themselves, and not for financial reward.

And here was I optomistically hoping that approved electricians (NIEIC, IIIE) would be a bit more au fait with the legalities than CORGIs.

Cheers Clive

Reply to
Clive Summerfield

"Pete Henley" wrote | In reply to Tim, I have just calculated my current full load and was a | bit suprised...... | 11x60W (1 dining room, 2 lounge wall lights, 5 lounge central lights, | 3 kitchen central lights) [...]

Lighting points must be rated for circuit design purposes at 100W minimum or actual load if greater, so your dining room and wall lights are 300W not

180W. I assume your lounge and kitchen central lights are multi-bulb fittings. The same applies to low energy fittings.

Owain

Reply to
Owain

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