OT: Wind Farms

Extract: Wind farms are made profitable by subsidies through Renewable Obligation Certificates which provide over half of wind farm revenue.[110] The total annual cost of the Renewables Obligation topped £1 billion in 2009 and is expected to reach £5 billion by 2020, of which about 40% is for wind power.

This from the Wiki:

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The whole thing reads as though it was written by a wind farm supplier.

But it does say: "There is some dispute over the necessary amount of reserve or backup required to support the large-scale use of wind energy due to the variable nature of its supply. In a 2008 submission to the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee, E.ON UK argued that it is necessary to have up to 80?90% backup.[126] National Grid which has responsibility for balancing the grid reported in June 2009 that the electricity distribution grid could cope with on-off wind energy without spending a lot on backup, but only by rationing electricity at peak times using a so-called "smart grid", developing increased energy storage technology and increasing interconnection with the rest of Europe. In June 2011 several energy companies including Centrica told the government that 17 gas-fired plants costing £10 billion would be needed by 2020 to act as back-up generation for wind. However as they would be standing idle for much of the time they would require "capacity payments" to make the investment economic, on top of the subsidies already paid for wind."

Reply to
Davey
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So now we know why they want to install smarter meters - so they can remotely switch off supplies in an emergency, then later turn on again in stages to avoid heavy load surges.

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Reply to
Windmill

Well I'd have thought that it should have been obvious to anyone that wind does not always blow and when it does, it might well be so erratic and violent as to be unusable in the practical sense. In my view wind power should have only been mass deployed once an efficient method of storing Electricity had been developed. At the moment they seem to be using these water based systems that pump water up to an upper lake then release it in times of demand, but its hard ly responsive as its not like you can pour the water back in a few seconds.

Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

"Dinorwig has the fastest "response time" of any pumped storage plant in the world - it can provide 1320 MegaWatts in 12 seconds"

So it can. I think it's much harder to find suitable sites.

Reply to
Bob Eager

Of course it is. Because the UK, for the purposes of *this* discussion, is essentially flat.

Reply to
Tim Streater

It doesn't make wind farms profitable from society's PoV. It just moves the losses, by law, to someone else.

Just the same as subsidising anything, really.

Reply to
Tim Streater

Yep fully pumping to fully on load in that time. Trouble is it can only keep up that load level for a handful or so of hours. Assuming the upper reservoir is full...

I'd be surprised if the greenies would let another Dinorwic or three be built these days even if suitable sites could be found.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

I see nothing wrong with that, provided they only switch off those people on "green" tarrifs. Those on pure nuke tarrifs stay on 24/7, those on mixed source pro-rata on the availabilty of the "green" energy. So if the mix is 20% "green" then they are off for up to 4.8 hours of every 24.

Reply to
Dave Liquorice

They keep one turbine spinning all the time to provide rapid response (I believe it's driven round electrically). "Electric Mountain" is well worth a visit on a wet afternoon in North Wales.

Reply to
Huge

snip

When we lived in the US, our Air Conditioning system was on a separate meter that could be switched off remotely by the power company, in case of near overload in hot weather. For this, we paid a reduced rate. As far as we know, it was never switched off in the ten years we lived in that house.

Reply to
Davey

It's easy, just flood Scotland. All of it.

From full pumping to full generating its seven and a half minutes at Dinorwig

Reply to
The Other Mike

No it is not fully pumping to fully on load. 12 seconds is the time from spinning in air to on load. Also the max output of Dinorwig is 1800MW and takes around 20 seconds.

Fully pumping to fully on load takes seven and a half minutes.

Reply to
The Other Mike

That's a slightly more refined version of what I've been saying for years.

Mine was to have a referendum on nuclear power. Abide by its results, but if it were a no to nuclear power, cut of the supplies of those who voted no whenever there is a shortage.

SteveW

Reply to
SteveW

Most afternoons in Wales then :)

SteveW

Reply to
SteveW

No it can do that, but once its got to a certain level at the top lake, it has to use electricity for some hours to pump it back up again, so it will be out of action for a while. I wonder how they are getting on with those superconducting storage systems?

Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

I don't see how smart meters are going to achieve that unless we also have smart appliances.

The idea of load balancing this way is that you temporarily turn off "unnecessary" appliances (such as fridges/freezer), I can't see a government remaining in power too long if they sanction a scheme which remotely turns off people's lights and TV on a whim

tim

Reply to
tim.....

Well there is that of course, but I suppose we could build a hill or two out of rubbish or maybe dig a huge hole?

Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

I was there on the sunny afternoon a few years ago. The creaking as the spoil heaps started to warm up and dry out was scary.....

Reply to
John Williamson

Check out the dimensions. I don't have the top reservoir size or height to hand, but the pump/turbines, which *have* to be at the bottom, are in a cavern cut out of the rock which is supposed to be large enough to contain St Pauls. (It was a slate mine).

Reply to
newshound

At least a thousand feet high?

Reply to
Tim Streater

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