In what areas ? It can be in some places, particularly with moving files around, but that's mainly because the apps own the files so no app gets to snoop on any of your data you don't want it to.
I bet you mum didn't when starting from scratch.
It certainly does things differently to Win. Bet that's what you actually mean rather than backward and illogical in an absolute sense.
Again, that is a side effect of the very fundamental difference in approach of the apps owning the files that belong to it. OSX doesn't have anything like the same sandboxing approach that iOS does, so doesn't provide anything like the same protection against apps snooping on anything the want to.
That's not backwards or illogical, just a very different way of doing things which does certainly have some massive downsides with the UI, but has some massive advantages too like not needing any need to check whether an app can f*ck your system over if it wants to.
iOS doesn't. There is no desktop, and no use of it for volatile things.
It is a pretty fundamental part of UI design, being able to have a homogeneous UI across all the diverse hardware you have.
Specially now with the move to being able to so anything on any of them and the one that happens to close like with an incoming phone call or email etc.
Sure, but naïve users do need to ask about even the most basic stuff.
That?s not doing something different with that machine.
We aren't talking about new programs, we are talking about the programs you could have installed on that older version of MINT that you didn?t because you didn?t want to do that previously on that machine.
Nope.
Like hell it isnt. You are free to install what you chose not to install on that XP machine because you didn?t need to do that on that machine until just now. And you will be able to do whatever you could have done but chose not to, because it never vanished.
Pay peanuts if you need to go that route.
Bullshit.
Nope. We are currently discussing that downside with Mint that doesn?t apply to other distros. Not talking about Linux v Windows at all now.
You don?t even know what choices I have made.
I do in fact use it for what it does better than Win, particularly on tablets and smartphones and a great raft of other stuff as well.
I'm not stupid enough to even want to use Win on those.
I'm just not stupid enough to claim that its of any real value for the average user who gets the OS with the hardware they buy for their laptop.
Bullshit. Ebuyer, for example, sells machines with no OS cheaper than with. You don't have to pay the Windows tax if you don't want to.
I've followed this tedious willy-waving war. I've used Linux for over
25 years and have never had a problem installing it. It's you, just accept you're too stupid to install it.
For what it's worth, I believe an OS is a tool. You choose the right tool for the job. I used Linux at work because it integrated well into our mixed Tru64 UNIX/Linux systems. I use both Windows and Linux at home because Windows runs the apps I want to use, and Linux (CentOS) runs on the NAS server, which also came with no OS (HP Microserver).
Not the fist place the people I was typically referring to would go for their hardware is it? No, they go to a 'specialist' (as most people would consider ebuyer). ;-)
It's good to have a hobby eh. ;-)
Yeah, of course you have. Just as any 'geek' on any subject wouldn't have the same issues any 'ordinary person' wouldn't.
Aw bless. Thanks for trying to join in Mike. ;-)
We share that thought at least then.
Bingo, and for my 'daily desktop' I have (thanks).
I used Windows at work because it was easy, common and integrated well into all the other Windows machines we had. There was a Unix box in the development lab but the two Unix geeks couldn't integrate with the rest of the staff, even if they tried (and I don't think they ever did). ;-(
There you go, another commonality between us then.
Yup, because it's a *server*. My mate has one in the PC shop running Windows Server.
You aren't talking about the 'others' who are in compete agreement with me then (of course you wouldn't)?
Again, thanks for playing Mike, your contribution has helped enormously (as always). ;-)
Without having either in front of me and whilst actually trying to do something (or more accurately, trying to help someone do something
*they* can't), I can't think of anything specific.
Yeah, it's often around that sort of thing. A mate with an iPhone liked the ringtone I had put on my S4 and so I tried to Bluetooth it to him. When that failed (and I Bluetooth all sorts of stuff to other kit) I emailed it to him. He got the email, with what looked like the correct format attachment but couldn't open it. He seemed to think that was par for the course.?
What, her iPad? Yes and no. She found it much easier than her Windows / Linux laptop that's for sure, well, to be more accurate, outside of eMail and IM, it didn't serve her needs as well as a tablet does.
The problem with any desktop OS is that it is quite volatile. It's fairly easy for an innocent user to drag and drop a desktop icon, file or folder elsewhere.
And iOS to Android.
Well, partially possibly but it's a bit like that OS / theme they created for the older folk, Eldy or summat?
We are quite happy to create an eMail by *first* selecting the address, then the subject, then creating the text. When writing that conventional letter, most people first create the text on the letter,
*then* address the envelope, This special software attempted to emulate what people tend to do in the real world.
When I was IT training, most of the courseware (Microsoft or Novell), had the exercises in two forms:
1) This is what we want you to do / create and *every* step on how to do it.
2) This is what we want to do / create.
When helping them though the option 1) format I often found it difficult to step back to being guided on each and every tiny step and click.
All I wanted was "Add a user called John and make him Administrator", but to do that you first had to know and to open Control Panel, Users and Groups, Add etc (all covered in the easy guide).
Ok?
Ok? But why couldn't it give me the option to create a text file on the desktop?
Ok.
I was really talking about OSX here, I don't consider a 'Tablet OS' in the same way in general.
But that's what tripped up Canonical with Unity and W8 for MS, desktop users *don't want* the same touch-screen driven interface as on a phone or tablet?
Yes, I understand the concept but it appears it isn't what people actually want (or want yet)?
Yes, across all OS's. The problem is then how easy is it for them to implement any solution offered.
With Windows I can generally find a very detailed, accurate and specifically relevant solution that actually works.
With Linux, I have found I have to be very careful that any solution offered applies *exactly* to my specific disctro, version, app version and desktop. If the solution involved the CLI and misses out a single step or assumes prior knowledge I am often stuffed. If all the criteria match and there are enough people giving positive feedback to the solution I'll generally give it a go.
OSX support is often somewhere inbetween (in as much as it is often more OS version specific than Windows help). No OSX version has run as long as XP etc. ;-)
I bet she didn't find an android far easier than an ipad when first using a tablet.
Same with an android rather than an iOS system, much easier to lose something when reorganising the screens.
iOS is much more limited on what you can do, but is much safer for that level of user too, its quite hard to make things you don't use invisible for example. All you can do is shove them right down to the last screen that you normally don't ever see.
That isnt what they did with OSX.
That isnt necessarily the best approach with a radical new technology.
It makes no sense to have mobile phones dial numbers like like landline phones do.
But the whole point of the most recent tablet and smartphone UIs is that you don't have to have that long winded approach to doing the most basic stuff.
And on the whole, most users do find the modern tablet and smartphone UIs a lot more natural and easy to do the usual stuff with.
You don't even see the files etc at all, you just deal with the photo etc as a photo and don't even have to name it sensibly to be able to find it again etc.
Because that mentality of operating at the level of files that you have to tell it which app to use with that file doesn't make sense anymore. Its much better to have an app you do documents in and have no concept of a desktop at all. You don't care where the photos are, what you care about is which photo you want to see again and which one you want to send to someone else etc.
It is where most create and operate on stuff like photos, documents etc now.
I'm not talking about the touch screen driven interface, just the basic organisation of the apps you can tell the system you want to use etc.
They do actually when they want to do stuff with things like photos and emails and phone calls.
Why should answering a phone call be done any differently on your desktop or your tablet or your phone ? Same with video calls.
And you can with the tablet and smartphone OSs too.
Tho its much harder to write a definitive succinct set of instructions for androids for the most basic tasks because they are much more configurable by the user and the manufacturer than iOS systems.
With iOS the instructions can say to use spotlight to name the app explicitly so it doesn't matter where it is on the device. And the instructions can spell out how to change a relevant setting very simply, because the location of that will be the same on all the iOS devices in that version of iOS.
Yes, that is a real problem. Same with androids to a lesser extent. And with win too, particularly with the version of win.
I'm not sure she's ever tried an Android device. But that's not really the point ... I am 'tekky' and have quite a bit of experience with all sorts of OS's and GUIs and I am saying I don't find iOS / OSX particularly intuitive, logical or friendly.
But to do that you have to try fairly hard. Not quite the same as accidentally dropping a folder on (therefore in) a folder in Windows Explorer for example.
True, as with Android then.
I wasn't specifically saying they did. I was saying that's what it feels like to me and in comparison with most other OS's and UI's I use.
Maybe not, but it's what someone tried. ;-)
No? People were already familiar with land line dialling so why not?
I know, I was trying to give you an example of where 'easy' can become 'more difficult'.
Agreed. But I find the Apple approach (of trying to make it logical / easy to the layperson) more complicated / difficult because I don't want to be shielded from what is going on underneath (the opposite in fact).
Ah, I was about to say that and iTunes is a good (well bad) example of that. Both my daughter and I hate the way iTunes takes you music and seems to jumble it up when copying it to an iPod. We prefer a music player that leaves the files and folders as they were, so we can simply browse the device and get to our music directly (and copy it back if we wish) again.
Right click, New, Text document?
?
Well you *might* care where the photos are and want to copy them off directly? But this is my point, by trying to make it easier for a non technical user, they have made the technical stuff more complicated and for no apparent good reason? So, when someone gives me their machine to 'sort out iTunes', It's nearly impossible (for me anyway).
Create and view yes, I'm not sure most do much outside that and sharing them etc (few do retouching or even cropping from what I've seen)!
But the later unified OS's will, by definition (because two out of the three devices use touch screens), be introducing a touch screen OS into a market that generally isn't touch screen enabled (desktop PC's)? So the OS will then use tiles and gestures (W8/10) / Unity with the expectation that they will be used that way.
Yes, but they can already do that on the desktop without a touch interface.
Because most desktops don't have touch screens (or likely to get them).
Of course, but I was actually talking about Linux there. ;-)
But because your normal user would be very unlikely to root their phone, they would also be very unlikely to use the CLI so the rest could be covered by step-by-step screen shots.
Ok.
OK, that's good then (and an advantage of Windows / OSX over Linux).
Sure, like going from Users / Name to Doc and settings, Name, but that's about it over quite a long period. Many of the Linux boys can't agree what should actually be in many of the folders.
Well, if you only have a few and aren't 'interested' in taking stuff to pieces, then that's as good a way as any. ;-)
I think they often feel obliged to take what you put out and even a mostly plastic mower will have a steel blade and mostly iron motor (with quite a bit of copper wrapped round it). ;-)
;-)
Erm ... so that will probably be a 486 ... but no, I'd better not (thanks) as I think I'm currently on the 'too much stuff' threshold'. ;-(
Well, that confirms it for me then ... you *are* one of those people who doesn't have the ability to empathise with people.
I could rub your nose in it all so easily (re proof) but now I know, that would be cruel.
So, you can carry ob believing what you want, denying what you want as your ate completely insignificant to what is the complete truth.
OOI, is part of your Linux indoctrination program a contractual obligation to publicly deny anything and everything you read and don't like or understand, no matter how strange it makes you look?
*Everything* I've ever stated re my issues with Linux can also be found out there by the truckload as experienced by others ...
*everything*.
Your denial that I'm not telling it all exactly as I see / saw it is also stating that all the others are also making it all up.
I think it's often down to a mixture of things (and it's more Linux fanboys than straight 'users' I'm talking about here):
1) They are often insecure. This isn't helped by them choosing a minority interest OS that is in the most part, totally unheard of by the vast majority and so they feel ignored / unheard / un represented (which of course is correct).
2) They often are only able to think / see in black and white. Therefore you are either friend or foe, there is no in-between with them. So, if you aren't using and advocating Linux, you *are* foe.
3) They are often unable (more than unwilling I believe, it's not something they have control over) to see or even consider things from anyone else's POV. So, it matters not how much effort you put into trying to actually explain stuff (from your POV), they will simply ignore it and discount you. Why would they trust or believe anything you say, you are 'foe' after all?
If you want to see a classic portrayal of this in action, study 'Sheldon' on 'The Big Bang' TV show (and especially how he puts down
*everyone* for not being as intelligent as him and 'Engineers' in general).
I wonder if we are about to see another example of a Linux fanboy striking out and what he doesn't like or understand ...
I think having access to a range of hardware to play on and with is pretty par for the course for *anyone* interested in computers?
Good for you, thanks for sharing. ;-)
'Of course' they do. My machines run all OS's, that way I can get a balanced view of things and try and compare.
And it sounds like you *do need* Windows now and again, eh Mr 'Linux fanboy'. If only I (or the vast majority) needed Linux ever, it might gust creep up to the magic 6% userbase figure!
So, it' was good enough for you then but anyone *else* doing so is some sort of 'Windows / fanboy' (even when they may have an eclectic mix of OS's and hardware)?
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