OT : If you ever go across the sea to Ireland.....

[Adrian]

Hi All

Not specifically DIY - unless you count the fact that I diy'd the website - but I know from comments that many of the folks here have enjoyed visits or longer stays in the Emerald Isle....

There used to be a Ferry which ran from Swansea to Cork - and saved a long and inconvenient 4-hour drive from Rosslare for people visiting the South-West of Ireland. In fairness, it had a somewhat chequered history - but that was largely due to the outdated boat and the poor management... ...but at least it was a link.

Back in October 2006 the owners of the boat suddenly sold the boat and suspended the service... and, despite vague promises & rumours, there has been no sign of the service resuming since.

Much of the economy of West Cork and Kerry is based on tourism - mostly from the UK and EU. Many of these people used to bring their cars - but the more difficult journey has seen visitor numbers dropping dramatically over the last two years.

We've diy-d a website, with an online e-petition (chance for you to 'diy' something!) which is part of a campaign to focus attention on the problems caused by the loss of the ferry and bring pressure to bear on those people who can do something about it to get the service reinstated.

Apologies for the bandwidth - but if you'd care to drop along to

and add your support to our e-petition then we'd be most grateful !

Slainte Adrian

[tinnews]

I'll quite happily support it but I don't think there's a lot of hope. Ferries are generally an endangered species. Many of the 'neatest' routes for us (in East Anglia) to mainland Europe have gone. There's no longer a Felixstowe-Zeebrugge ferry, the Harwich-Hook of Holland route has been effectively downgraded by the loss of the high speed ferry. There also used to be a ro-ro service to Poland, that went quite a while ago.

I think Speedferries has invigorated the short cross channel routes but any routes that take more than an hour or two are dying out.

[Adrian]

HI Chris

Nice to hear from you !

[e-mail] wrote:

Ah well - we can but hope !

Thing is - this particular route is a bit 'special'. Roads out here in the south-west of Ireland are (by UK standards) pretty awful - so even quite short distances can take much longer than they would in the UK.

Because of this, people (tourists, holiday homers and folks visting relatives) heading for West Cork and Kerry are faced with four or five hours 'extra' driving time - which is a rotten way to start & end your holiday. Because of this, people are choosing to just go somewhere else

- which is really casing major problems for the local holiday industry.

Taking the old Swansea-Cork ferry meant that you could travel overnight (cabin if you wanted) and arrive in Ireland refreshed and ready to enjoy the rest of your holiday...

There's a bigger issue here, as well. There's someting odd about a ferry company that sells its only boat before securing a replacement - and then takes another 18 months to _not_ replace the boat. Whether such a situation should be allowed to continue..? - given the knock-on effect on local tourism & industry... I'm not a fan of nationalisation, but when the failure of a private organisation to deliver has such an impact then maybe it's the right way to go ??

All e-signatures are appreciated !

Thanks Adrian

>

[TMC]

Regular freight traffic is the bread and butter of many ferries and if there is not enough demand in that area then not much chance

Mind you as I could fly 2 people from Birmingham to Cork for less than the cost of fuel to Swansea and back never mind the cost of the ferry it would be cheaper to do this and hire a car in Cork

However I will sign your petition and good luck

Tony

[Adrian]

You & me both! So far, attempts to involve the Government have not really been all that successful (there's a news item about the most recent Questions & Answers session on our news page

asked to act, the Government seems to find it easiest to hide behind a 'non-interventionist' policy - which neatly relieves them of the need to actually _do_ anything...

Apparently EU subsidies were always available, although the Govt claimed that they weren't....

Looking at the accounts for the last years that the SwanseaCork ferry ran there was a revenue split of 15% : 85% between freight and passenger traffic.

Yes - there's no doubt that the cheap air fares attract lots of customers. Car hire isn't cheap over here - and many families with small kids prefer to pack 'everything' in the car and then ferry across. West Cork's a great place for watersports - and getting a kayak or a windsurfer on Ryanair isn't easy!

We've seen a dramatic drop in the 'newly wed and the nearly dead' as one market trader affectionately christened them. These are the retired and the youngsters - who could take advantage of reduced travel and accomodation rates in April - May and September - and many of whom liked to bring their cars across on the ferry. This trade has all but disappeared - reducing the 7-month tourist season to a 3-month season...

That'd be great - many thanks...

Adrian

[Steve Firth]

My rememebery of the history of the ferry is that like Brittany Ferries it was a service initially funded by a consortium of farmers with some government money. I suspect there was also an influence from restaurants and hotels. I don't think it has ever been a runaway financial success and there are debates in the Dáil dating back to the late 80s where money was requested to support the company. There also seems to be a suggestion that it's not in the Irish Governments interests to subsidise the Swansea-Cork route since they already support ferries on northern routes to a much greater extent.

[Rod]

Are you sure you shouldn't be campaigning for a road on top of the Saint Just to Cork tidal lagoon dam? Might get a bit more support :-)

[Andy Hall]

But one can fly to Cork, and do you really want people from Swansea?

[Adrian]

You're absolutely right - you can fly to Cork. Many people who have filled in our e-petition have their own reasons for wanting to bring their own cars / vans etc, and bring them to Cork rather then Rosslare on the East coast.

Parents with young kids prefer the shorter driving distance (landing in Cork removes 4 - 5 hours from the journey at the start and end of the holiday. Many people prefer to bring their own bits & pieces - kayaks, rowing boats (yes - really!), hang-gliders, bicycles, caravans - not so easy on the plane. People prefer the familiarity of their own vehicle, rather than an expensive hired car.

and so it goes on...

And as to wanting people from Swansea - you'll be aware that the Irish as a nation are famed for their friendly, hospitable attitude - and this extends to everybody, regardless of nationality. As a 'blow-in' myself, I can vouch for this.

Some 15% of the vehicles carried were bring freight, rather than passengers - so all that freight is now going either via Rosslare (+4 hours), via Dublin (even longer driving), by air - or just not going at all. There's a story on our 'my stories' section from a chap who rund a small courier firm - used to do lots of trips from West Cork to London - specialising in art & antiques. Because the Cork Swansea ferry no longer runs - he's now so uncompetitive (longer travelling times) that he doesn't even tender for UK-IE business..

There's also the 'green' aspect - which many people have mentioned....

Lots of good reasons....

Regards Adrian

[Bob Mannix]

It was AFAICR expensive though. When I wanted to do the trip ended up on the Rosslare route as the Cork route was booked up by (well heeled) customers and Rosslare was cheaper. The drive wasn't too bad (especially early morning on the outward part, worse on the return as we hit the Cork rush hour). We had a cabin on the way out for a nominal extra fee, which was nice, but there was plenty of bench space to lie on on the return.

[Adrian]

Yes - it was never the cheapest crossing in the world ! However - you needed to factor in the cost of overnight accommodation (if doing another route) and the convenience of not having to drive the extra distance to Rosslare.

A point we've made on the website is that we want the link back in place

- not necessarily the same boat (like a newer one please!), or the same operator, or the same fares structure - if we can just get the link reinstated with a decent operator then I'm sure the rest will follow....

Many thanks Adrian

>

[Andy Hall]

Yes, and I've done that on several occasions and for that matter to Dublin.

So one answer there is to factor this into the holiday. For example, add a couple of extra days and make overnight stops. It isn't as though there aren't attractive places to visit on these routes to and from the ferries.

Agreed for some purposes. For some purposes I take my car to places all over Europe. For others I rent a car and take that or rent one locally. Overall, I am not sure that there is a substantial cost difference when all factors are taken into account.

I know, I was being facetious.

Well.... for this one there are several sides to the discussion. Another is that some people choose to live in SW Ireland because it's relatively remote, in the same way that they live in the extremities of the UK such as Cornwall and the Scottish outer isles.

In the latter case there has been the discussion about the subsidy of the ferry services. There may be a case for that if it's the only available option.

I don't know the detail of the Swansea/Cork case, but presumably there is an element of commercial viability?

Commercial ferry operators are not in the business of providing public services. If there is a shortfall, then there are a few options to do something about that:

- Attract more business for the ferry.

- Raise fares.

- Arrange subsidy for the ferry operator from central government, local government, local business.

What are you trying to achieve with your petition? Persuade members of the Dail to provide a subsidy? I think that they may run into fun with the EU about that because there are alternative ways to reach the region, so it becomes a matter of degree.

Maybe it would be worth looking at this on a broader front? i.e. more of the approaches mentioned above,

Looking at some of the responses on your web site, I can see that there are quite a few holidaymakers who bemoan the changes. Fine. Perhaps it would be an idea to ask them if they would be willing to pay an increased fare to have the ferry operating. If the decreased journey time, fuel etc. is significant to them, they should have no problem in paying substantially more. It's very easy to sign a petition berating loss of a public service. The acid test is will the petitioners put their hands in their pockets.

It seems to me that if you want to win this one, you will need to attack it on a broader base.

That's a weak argument in really making a difference to this.

[Adrian]

That's fine - but most holiday lets are on a weekly basis - so you'd either need to take a couple of extra days over your holiday to allow for the travelling, or persuade the owner to let you the property for 5 days rather than 7....

True.... there are many sides to the argument

Sorry - missed the smiley...

Looks like it from the accounts I was reading - mind, accounts can show anything

Swansea Cork Ferries seem to have adopted option #4 - sell the boat ! Strange behaviour - especially when you don't have a replacement lined up...

Simply to act as a focus for the discussion and to raise the profile of the issue. Dublin is a long way from Cork & Kerry - and there's a feeling that our concerns aren't being heard up there.

Agreed - anybody can complain. The e-petition is deliberately 'open' in its format - because we wanted to get peoples' views on the matter. As soon as you start putting 'tick boxes' there then it becomes far too easy to just give a 'tick box' response - which we felt has less value..

Maybe - only passing on what the folks have said..

Thanks for your comments - appreciated

Adrian

[Andy Hall]

I was thinking two extra days.

Well I *was* being facetious.

So it was viable or not?

Indeed. These decisions are made by accountants.

OK, I thought that that was it. I've done a few of these kinds of thing in the past, at different levels of impact and scale.

The common themes that I found worked are:

- Build momentum quickly. A slow one like an open petition won't work on its own but may be a precursor to a more concerted effort.

- Build a contact base of movers and shakers and do it widely. Find professionals such as solicitors and accountants who may be willing to donate their time or do so at a reduced rate.

- Find the politicians at all levels and identify their hot buttons. Play to those. Sideline anyone likely to be a detractor.

- Find the media contacts. This is critical.

- Don't be afraid to embarrass politicians and especially public officials.

Yes it is, I agree. The point is that I think that if you want to be serious about this, it's going to be just one of multiple things that will be needed.

[Bob Mannix]

Well, when we used even the Rosslare route, we caught a ferry at AFAICR

2.00am on the Saturday (drive to Swansea and have a snooze in the car from 11.00 to boarding, arrive at 6-7am and then drive to West Cork (Adrigole) ready to use the accomodation. On return ferry was at 7.30pm ish on the Saturday so set off in the morning as per usual. Aside from drive home at the end, all quite easy to do without extending holiday. Bit of driving across southern Ireland but not bad. Not sure it was 4 hours extra! To plug the area, if you want a sailing holiday, I can thoroughly recommend:

[Adrian]

OK - I believe you

Apparently... though I do suspect that some creative accounting was involved to make it look less viable....

Hmm. Rumour has it that the boss of the company used to be a Finance Officer or somesuch in local government...... draw your own conclusions !

What is a bit odd is that they allegedy sold the boat - but their accounts don't show them as eve having _owned_ the boat.....

darn good trick if you can do it....

Anybody want to buy London Bridge ??

Yes - we didn't want to go to the media until we'd got sufficient content / signatures to look credible - but I think we're approaching that stage now - so we're starting the media 'push'

That's a thought. My colleague in the campaign has all the contacts - I'm new in these here parts....

Yes....

Working on that

Now you're talking my language

My email address is valid - if you don't mind the occasional 'brain pick' then I'd be grateful if you could email me and I could maybe ask the odd question from time to time....?

Some things are perhaps best discussed 'in private'...

Thanks Adrian

[Adrian]

I'm fairly sure that the westcorksailing people signed our e-petition - istr that they were commenting on the lack of UK business as a result of the ferry closure.

I'm not doubting that you can do it - but I know from the comments on the e-petition

from talking to people running b&b, holiday lest etc - that quite a few people won't do it.... and will go 'somewhere else'

I heard from a caravan site owner out on the East coast - they did very well thank you last year 'cos all the UK caravanners came off the boar at Rosslare, found this site (a couple of miles from the ferry terminal), put the jacks down & stayed there the whole week.... whereas previously they'd have come into Cork and stayed out this side of the country...

If you were able to sign the e-petition that'd be great

Thanks Adrian

[Bob Mannix]

Well it wouldn't be a show stopper from my point of view and my circumstances have changed so a return trip is not likely(!) but I have signed the petition anyway as I wouldn't like to see the nice people at West Cork Sailing go out of business!

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian saying something like:

But beware that AH doesn't try to dissuade you from re-instating a cut rate off-season ferry service.

To maintain standards, you should be looking at a full-price, high-quality service on the route with hydrofoil craft and only one class of fare - First. Of course, the staff will be resplendant in their gold-encrusted uniforms, even the engine jockeys, and every whim of every passenger will be attended to, regardless of cost. Why, they'd even wipe your arse on request. Cabins will be redolent of a five-star hotel and the cuisine offered would only be otherwise encountered in the most exclusive of Paris hotels. Hot and cold running stewards of both sexes will graciously offer themselves for free for any recreational activity you wish.

And of course, every ticket purchased will come with a four year warranty, so that in the event of you ever regretting your trip, you will get an immediate refund, complete with the most abasing of management apologies.

[Adrian]

That's very good of you - thanks !

Adrian