High powered kettles & vacuum cleaners plan to ban them in EU stalls

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Since it interests some people here.

Don't worry, I 'spect post BREXIT, it will be resurrected.

Reply to
harry
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Our 3kW Kenwood kettle died the other day and we picked up a cheap lower power one to cover us till we replace it for what we wanted.

Whilst it boils water it is s l o w, most noticeably when you are just boiling enough for one cup and are standing in front of it. It really feels like that 'watched pot never boils' and certainly so in comparison with our old one.

However I'm guessing the issue is 10,000 x 3kW kettles going on at once puts more peak demand on supply (even if for a shorter time) than

10,000 2kW kettles and that's their point. The lower rating kettles put 10 MW less peak demand on supply.

But what about those things where practicality and science are locked together, like instant electric showers? Aren't 'people' also fairly habitual with things like that as well?

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

Slowing kettles increases their energy consumption. God knows what the economic cost is of all the lost working minutes. Another of the EU's moronic ideas.

trivial compared to the economic cost

Showers are one area where large energy reductions are practical. But forcing everyone to shower a particular low energy way is purely political.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

I'm guessing there must be a sweet spot, for any given design. Isn't it the rate at which electricity can put heat into the water minus the rate at which heat is lost from the system whilst that is happening?

For me it would be more to do with going back out to the already boiled kettle and re-boiling it again as I couldn't be asked to stand there and wait for it the first time?

Maybe, but that is an average spread across millions of instances versus a very specific / factual reduction on peak load.

Again, *if* they aren't part of a proven peak in demand that we may not be able to meet (whatever the reason for that).

Aren't all these ideas about trying to remove peaks in demand because they are expensive to meet (more or bigger power stations)?

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

Yes, I'd be interested to know how. An electric shower is very energy efficient, but not especially environmentally kind or cost effective.

Yes, I suppose that has to be factored in, hadn't thought abut that too much. I'm more interested in saving money and tidying up the environmental impact.

Reply to
RJH

I suspect one idea which really caused alarm in Brussels was to mandate an option to switch off kettles when water reaches 90 or 96 degrees: "suitable making coffee...does not however allow the water to boil which some tea drinkers insist on". You can see what the Sun, DM et al could make of that

The EU Working Parties are looking at all sorts of other things too: thermal capacity - eg mandating thick-film elements becuase they weigh much less than standard elements; cutting the time between boiling and switch off; durability; use of scarce materials (so chrome may be deprecated); and pollutants (eg plasticizers in flex).

Reply to
Robin

The sweetest spot is the max power available. The faster, the less heat los s time.

65million x 3 cups a day x [vague guess] 2 mins = 390 million minutes = 6.5 million hours a day = 2.4 billion hours a year. At [guess] £12.50/ hr that's £30 billion every single year. There are other points to factor in as well.

yup

which is cheaper, £30bn pa or another 10MW of capacity?

aeration, pulsing showerheads, heat exchange & if willing reduction of flow .

It's political full stop. The argument in favour of peak demand is bogus in that such skimping increases total cost, not reduces it.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

I don't mind too much if they recommend such things, but why on earth should they force us all to adopt their frequently ill considered ideas?

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

The amount of money spent on new spec kettles (and energy) wont ever be saved by their use. Not that we are short of energy anyway. Ex of the artificial shortages imposed on us by 'climate change policy'.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

;-)

So, they will either have to make them even more so somehow (I can't see how because as you say, little heat (energy) goes to waste and few people would want them at maximum temperature anyway so already allow some cold water in the mix (thermostatically etc) so the only way to lower the peak load would be to increase the water capacity and pre heat somehow? Hey, we could have a bigger cylinder full of water and heat is with a heater element we can immerse in the water. I wonder what we should call it. ;-)

Joking aside, the 'problem' there (without us having to potentially sacrifice something) is predicting how much water would be required and preempting it's use so that we aren't trying to store hot water any longer than necessary.

I think some of that can be down to 'people' and their desire to keep up with fashion and have 'new'. I fitted our Triton T80 many many years ago and have repaired it a couple of times along the way. Had I ripped it out and replaced it each time I doubt the energy required (/environmental cost) to make the spares would have been as much as that used to make a complete new unit.

Most people don't? ;-(

Many people are, subject to the 'cost'. Like, how many people guess they could save money by changing their ISP or energy supplier but simply don't bother because the perceived 'faf' and savings and considered 'not worth it'.

Again, not throwing perfectly good stuff away is part of that. We currently have a perfectly useable two settee settee in the back of the car that I'd like to find a home for, rather than take to the tip (where is this 'away' when we throw things away etc).

None of the local charity shops wanted it (we took it to them and showed them) and no one has picked it up off Freegle / Freecycle yet? Even if it wasn't used in a lounge it would be perfect for the kids or pets or in the allotment shed etc.

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

It gets worse, read this absolute load of tosh spouted by Ofgem, and weep.

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Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Because that's what they are paid to do. Come up with 'directives' and 'regulations' that abide by the political aims set out by the commissars.

What else should they do? sit there twiddling their thumbs before lunch and sleeping it off afterwards?

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

did anyone suggest getting rid of the old spec kettles?

Reply to
charles

One thing about all of this is that there are obviously ways to make these devices more efficient, and I'm all for that on many levels, mostly cost of fuels, but recently having bought a lower power vacuum from a certain German sounding company, I do note that if one uses the current model on full speed, after about 6 minutes, it slows down as its getting too hot. This is I would say a waste, and its only happening due to the lower power motor attempting to do the job of the earlier bigger one that ran cooler. I think the legislation should not just put power constraints on appliances, but try to cover efficiency also, or its a false economy. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

In message , T i m writes

Simple solution.... go back to staggered advert breaks on evening TV:-)

Reply to
Tim Lamb

Like, how much of a rush are people in when making themselves a hot drink or what things are they doing at the same time (like making a sarnie or some toast). ;-)

(hypothetically)

I don't know, I've not bought a power station. ;-)

Ok. Anyone here got any of those and if so, how well do they work?

If you are talking about waste water heat recovery I'm not sure how effective that would be on an electric shower (where the waste water is pretty cold by the time it goes down the plug and is of low volume in any case. I can see how it could be effective on a conventional high / capacity shower and helping pre-heat the water being returned to the system (cylinder) or heated instantly (combi).

That was the only 'science' one I could think of and something we (here) already experience in the coldest weather (when the shower can't provide the same level of heat *and* flow as it can in the summer).

Whilst it may well be, isn't a more constant load more economical to supply?

But only if you (seriously) consider / factor in the losses in 'productive time' you mentioned above?

I'm not arguing with you btw, just asking.

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

It was the break in Miss World that triggered the big surge - not just kettles but water pumping stations replenishing toilet systerns.

Reply to
charles

All the heat from the element goes into the water regardless of size. So efficiency would be by the amount of heat lost from the kettle body. My guess is it would be slightly more with a lower power element if the rest is identical, as it will take more time to boil.

I can sort of see the point in setting an upper limit for things like a vacuum cleaner, as it's certain the efficiency of those could be improved. It's not the case with something like a kettle.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

What you usually get is some form of discussion document. The anti EU press - ie the vast majority - print this as being law. And the fools who read them believe it. There are countless examples out there.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

The EU hating press usually imply this.

'UK kettles to be banned by the EU'

'Sales of kettles larger than 2kW (or whatever) to be phased out under an EU proposal'

doesn't wind up their readers in the way they want.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

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