OT: Domestic Curtilage vs Agricultural Land

[Dan]

Hi all,

We are looking at buying a house in the woking area, with a couple of acres split between garden and paddock (horse on at the moment) - but the owner is not too clear where each bit ends. The land registry map doesn't distinguish between the bits, and the council are claiming that they can't easily find out - that there is no map which shows which bit is which.

They say they can probably figure it out, but we have to ask in writing, and it will take 10 working days, which is not all that helpful as we need to decide whether to make an offer in the next couple of days.

Any suggestions on how to find out ? Any ideas gratefully received.

-- Dan

[Peter Crosland]

No chance in your timescale. Even if they do you would be well advised to consult a professional surveyor because they will not err in your favour.

Peter Crosland

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Dan writes

How big an issue is this?

Grazing recreational horses is not an agricultural use anyway.

Once upon a time, agricultural land was jealously guarded as important to food security, nowadays planners are more concerned about preventing domestic development.

From time to time, photographic aerial surveys are carried out. Oil company etc. These photos are often offered to the land owner to offset some of the costs. You might be able to pick out some historic fencing which would give an indication. IME gardens have invariably grown rather than shrunk.

I take it, the previous owner has not registered the land for Single Farm Payments?

regards

[Roger]

The message from "Dan" contains these words:

I take it this is a reasonably old house so try the local library for various editions of the largest scale map they have and see where the garden boundary was in times past. The most likely scenario is that the garden will have grown over the years so you could end up arguing with the council about whether the current set-up is allowable now you have drawn their attention to it. I presume there are some rules about established usage but I have no idea what.

There is another problem for you lurking in the background if you can't establish the precise boundary of the garden. Should you ever be in the fortunate position of selling the land for housing anything not domestic won't fall within your main residence exemption but the way Bastard Brown is heading ATM that exemption may not be around when you come to sell anyway.

[Roger]

The message from Tim Lamb contains these words:

Don't you need a minimum of 10 hectares to get on that particular gravy train?

AFAICT the entry level stewardship scheme doesn't have a minimum area but at only £30 per hectare (if you can raise the points) it is not exactly worth the effort for small areas of land.

[Peter Crosland]

1 hectare.

Peter Crosland

[Dan]

Reason it __may__ be an issue is that we want to put a tennis court in at some time in the future, and there may not be room if too much of it is agricultural

This is interesting - the council know all about the horses as they have been round many times over a previous planning flap when the owner put up some hardstanding on a separate paddock to the side.

There is also a sand school in the paddock area - so does this and the keeping of horses imply something about the type of land it is ?

Thanks, will look into this

Not as far as I know - he currently runs a plumbing business from it.

Cheers, Dan

[Peter Crosland]

If it has been used for grazing domestic animals for more than four years (unless it is in a conservation area, national park or neara listed building) then it is no longer in agricultural use and an application for a certificate of lawful use is likely to be successful.

For which he almost certainly has not had permission for change of use but the same comments about lawful use apply. The problemn with all of this is that your timescale is quite unrealistic for getting it sorted.

Peter Crosland

[Dan]

Peter - does the certificate of lawful use only apply to the grazing/training of horses, or would it now mean we could use for any domestic purpose ?

In any case, thanks to all for suggestions. We will have to make an offer based on our best guess, and try and get an accurate answer during the buying process.

Dan

[Peter Crosland]

The COLU allows the formal legitimization of a change of use after a period of time. Obviously it depends on exactly what use the land has been put to. Not all horse grazing is domestic and it all depends on the facts and a reasonable standard of proof. If a change of use continues for the set period of time then the local planning authority loses the right to take enforcement action. This applies to any change of use but the time period varies. For most purposes this is four years for domestic use and ten for commercial use. The rules are different for conservation areas, listed buildings and in National Parks. A Google search will produce some local authority sites with more details.

Peter Crosland

[AJH]

It's an interesting one this, especially in regard to equestrian use, the ten year rule is the one I have a disinterested experience of. The upshot was it attracted a commercial rate :-(. In the case in point there is a map available that suggests the land use and guessing where it is it looks like about .7acre is deemed within the curtilage of the dwelling but IANAL.

AJH

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Dan writes

You could telephone the local planning dept. and ask if there would be a problem. There is a flavour of *avoiding additional domestic clutter* about our local (greenbelt) planning. If this is instead of stable/sand school rather than as well as, you may have room for discussion. It may not be an issue if the proposed site is not visible from a public area such as a footpath. It won't cost anything to ask:-)

There is clearly some *planning sensitivity* about this site so you would do well to explain your ambitions and gauge the reaction. I guess they were heading off a perceived commercial use and may welcome a normal resident.

Not really. Given a choice of derelict agricultural land or a managed paddock they are unlikely to interfere. Policy may even encourage recreational use. It has more technical importance where it would put an agricultural tenant in breach of a traditional tenancy.

regards