OT - Daily Mail Eco Bollocks - "Big brother to switch off your fridge"

[The Other Mike]

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article , The Other Mike writes

Yeah, I read that in the pub yesterday (buggered if I'm paying for the Mail, and I washed my hands after). Typical Daily Heil scaremongering crap.

Dynamic Demand have been flogging this idea for years.

[Terry Fields]

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally"

A bit like the assurances that police tazers would only be used in extreme circumstances....

[Dave Liquorice]

I know it's the Mail but WTF do you start with the bollocks it spouts.

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

There will be something buried in the User Guide that gives your consent by the simple act using the appliance. That happens already for lots of things.

In the graphic it says demand surged during the Royal Wedding. I doubt it was during but immediatly afterwards when everyone leapt up for a cuppa and a wee (pumps coming on to supply water and take it away). Not even sure that 2.4 GW is correct either and if it is it's probably one of, if not the, largest load pickups ever and can be planned for and is why we have Dinorwic.

"Sensors in domestic appliances would check this frequency every 0.2 seconds, and if it fell to 47Hz - a level that would risk blackouts - the devices would kick in and shut fridges, freezers and ovens down."

Only "risk" blackouts at 47 Hz? The limit 50 Hz is +/- 0.5 Hz. I reckon if it ever got down to 47 Hz there would be power stations tripping out left right and center.

"If the frequency of the supply nudged towards 52 Hz, the devices could make fridges become cooler, increasing demand and balancing out the system."

Pardon, do I really see what I'm reading? HTF can a switch make a device use more energy? Or are they saying it switches on when it doesn't need to?

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally.'"

Well if they don't cut in until 47 Hz I think "occasionally" is likely to be "never" or if they do will they switch the appliance off before the supply anyway.

Very much looks like the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have been taken to some very nice meals.

[Tim Watts]

On Monday 29 April 2013 13:56 Terry Fields wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On people soak in flammable liquids...

[Tim Watts]

On Monday 29 April 2013 13:24 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Rather elegant...

[Andrew Gabriel]

I haven't read that, but I listened to the spokesman from the european power generators association (whatever it was called) being interviewed on this issue at lunchtime today.

That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned in another thread.

This is for EU-wide product supply. UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason than CEGB had controls good enough to do so. Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some EU synchronisation zones even outside that range. The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

And probably all the substation fuses will pop, dropping loads of load suddenly and unexpectedly, causing the frequency to rocket up through positive feedback as all loads are shed.

There's actually a large timing range for things like fridges (and even more, freezers) that can cycle on/off without going outside temperature spec. They do represent an excellent opportunity to store energy. For example, if you know you're going to have a mass toilet flushing and kettle boiling at the end of a royal wedding/funeral, you could switch on freezers beforehand so they drop an extra 1C, and then switch them off when the extra load is needed, and they then won't use any more power for an extended period whilst you get the toilet flushing and kettle boiling over and done with.

You are in effect using them to store electricity, but rather than storing the electricity directly which is horribly expensive, you are using them to convert the electricity to the final product in advance, and store that (coldness in this case).

(No, this wasn't covered in the interview.)

All our renewable generation automatically drops off the grid well before 47Hz (supposing we're lucky enough for the wind to be blowing and the sun shining in the first place, at the time of some major power shortage).

Power grids are struggling to think how to keep the lights on given politicians inability to build any viable power generation over the last 25 years, as the old plant ceases to work.

[John Rumm]

You note the way the politicians like to shift the blame so that its the national grid / power companies that are the bad boys here...

Do you suppose they would have chosen to integrate renewables were it not for political influence?

[Dave Liquorice]

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not just the Fridge.

Yes, that makes sense but that *isn't* what this device claims to be able to do, Smart Meters *might*. This device is autonomous it just looks at the frequency and switches off below 47 Hz on above 52 Hz(*). It's not centrally controlled from anywhere. I guess one could artificially increase the grid frequency to that extreme to trigger the devices but I'd put that into the "bit risky" category. Power stations will trip off on over frequency just as well as they do for under frequency.

(*) One would hope there would be some spread in the actual frequencies that trigger the devices. Suddenly shedding or loading the grid with the nations fridges might not be a good idea. I think it would require a bit more control than just component tolerances as well.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I can't help thinking that anyone to which that wasn't blindingly obvious, should never have been given access to a tazer, or any other weapon for that matter, not even a truncheon.

[Tim Watts]

On Monday 29 April 2013 15:54 Andrew Gabriel wrote in uk.d-i-y:

This is plod we're talking about...

[whisky-dave]

That's what I was thinking, the appliances would either have to have some sort of TX/RX such as bluetooth or could be controlled through the mains but the fridge again would have to have the switching electronic circuits built in.

That would be worrying, one could be playing an important game just about to reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!

Would that really save that much, surely this would be more use in kettles than fridage/freezers. Or as the govenrment uses scotland for such things just switch scotland off should we get low on power ;-)

If it wasn;t for H&S I'd get my meter out and measure the labs frequency . My cheap maplin brought power meter says 212V at 50HZ.

[harry]

All coming whether you like it or not.

This was discussed a couple of days back here. Welcome to tomorrow. Renewable energy. Wind turbines. PV electricity Tidal/wave power. We can live with it. Will have to. Even needed for new nuclear.

[meow2222]

Whether its a good or bad thing depends entirely on the details, as is so o ften the case.

Eg if it costs £1.50 per appliance (custom chip, relay) and doesnt make a ny noticeable diffrence to the end user, then it can cut generating & distr ibution costs a bit, and from that bills.

But if it costs £40 a pop (I cant see how it would), messes with your din ner and defrosts your food, and end users are legally required to use it, t hen its nothing but a stupid pest and an intrusion into basic liberty.

NT

[Nightjar]

On 29/04/2013 16:33, whisky-dave wrote: ...

reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!...

That is the purpose of a UPS.

Colin Bignell

[polygonum]

New anti-taser tactic - wet yourself thoroughly with water and a few drops of petrol. Anyone armed with a taser would now think twice (one would hope) before using it unless they were sure the wet was not flammable.

[tim......]

In don't think that's gonna work with "frost-free" ones. Surely they resist being "turned on early" to go a little bit colder

tim

[SteveW]

No, the purpose of a decent sized UPS is to allow you to brew up when the power loss has taken your IT systems out ;)

SteveW

[js.b1]

The ability to switch off individual appliances will be via a smart chip in a plug or socket, or future appliance.

This is already planned for the Dimplex Quantum series of storage heaters w hich are a visually redesigned proper fan storage heater like the commercia l range. There will be a Smart Switch where that whirling (giggle) wind tur bine can dump electricity into it at suitable times as essentially a large dump resistor bank when the wind is blowing, generating electricity, when n o-one wants it :-)

Unfortunately whilst Dimplex have come up with a reasonably nice design, sm art actual temperature regulation, fan only rather than leak output, ultra high value insulation, they have a) created silly prices (£650 or so for

3kW) and b) forgot you need about 65mm+ Celotex on every wall in a 3 bed se mi for it to have a chance of heating. Ok, 50mm XPS will do, but it is the big stumbling block.

More of a concern is the ?rumour? that the EU wants to impose an annual kWh r limit, far below the typical 8-10 units per day people use (ignoring stor age heaters, electric chair for the wife / kids / bank staff).

Aside, anyone fitted MK Isolators or their CU recently needs to check they are not part of the recall. Quality is going to the dogs broadly, ironicall y surprised at Legrand French outlets & parts recently - highest end models at eye watering prices on a house scale tho re NF100 requirements. Legrand sockets seem to have a low plug retention compared to MK. Things might hav e peaked in quality, sadly :-(

[geoff]

In message , The Other Mike writes

What percentage of the time do fridges and freezers sit there doing nothing until the compressor kicks in - 90%?

So on the whole, f*ck all saving