OT: British Gas going over the top with boiler safety diagnosis?

[Mathew Newton]

Hi everyone,

This is arguably off-topic however I would nevertheless appreciate the collective advice of the group with regards to my mother-in-law's boiler which British Gas have kindly switched off on safety grounds...

The situation is that she has got a British Gas service contract on her ageing (20yrs old?) Thorn M80/100C gas boiler. The service contract has kept it chugging along nicely with hardly anything needing doing it. Sure, it's not the most efficient specimen around however it's reliable and seemingly simple to fix. However, this year's visit has resulted in an 'at risk' label being attached to the boiler and it being turned off. Whilst this is hearsay, this is due to the flue apparently being too close to an openable window.

Now, I am surprised that this has action has not occured earlier - is there discretion when it comes to existing installations? Or perhaps the regs change and act retrospectively? My instinct says no on both counts which is making me concerned that they're trying to take advantage somewhat (she is unfortunately an easy target at this present time). If you could take a look at the photo showing the offending flue, what do you think?

she told me about it I asked her to take a photo as I was going to gauge the distant from how many bricks/tiles it might have been away... seeing how far it actually is though surprised me somewhat!

The advisory letter

to be a stock letter and unfortunately doesn't specify the exact problem(s) however I am told that, in addition to the flue outlet location, further concerns are that the flue and garage roof (which the flue passes through) both contain asbestos. I don't know for certain that this fact plays any contribution to the boiler being turned off - again surely if it did then why wasn't it turned off last year, or the year before that?

I'm 200 miles away and so haven't yet had the opportunity to go and take a thorough look for myself and take the issue up with BG on her behalf however my gut feeling is that something isn't quite right here. However, given the safety aspect here I don't want my potentially-misguided gut feelings to cloud and real issue so would welcome the panel's thought on it all.

Just to muddy the waters even further, the engineer didn't actually turn the boiler off on his first visit - just handed her the letter. Given the letter didn't tally with what had actually happened she phoned BG to clarify the situation. They promptly sent another guy out who did action the letter and turned the boiler off. Whilst he was there he phoned another guy up who turned up, in a suit and tie, and started poking around. She's now due a further visit tomorrow (she's actually been told it'll be a woman for what it's worth) to quote for a new boiler (and whatever else might be required). They've already been drawing breath through teeth given the asbestos issue and how much it might cost to get it safely removed.

Needless to say I've told her not to agree or sign anything and just let them state what's required then we can take it from there.

Any help would be gratefully received, she really could do without these concerns for which I can't help but feel have been exaggerated at best.

Mathew

[David Hansen]

On 9 May 2006 11:15:38 -0700 someone who may be "Mathew Newton" wrote this:-

Every year the gas board look at my mother's boiler and point out that the flue is too close to the outlet of a ventilation fan. They also say that it was probably fine when installed and this sort of thing is not retrospective.

If they do contain asbestos, which they may or may not do, then provided that the fibres remain encapsulated they pose little risk to anyone. The risk would rise if either was damaged and fibres were escaping into the atmosphere. Removing asbestos that does not need removing raises the concentration of fibres in the rooms concerned, which increases the danger.

You should challenge them strongly to see if they can justify their actions and if necessary hit them with a small claim for the expense and inconvenience they have put everyone to.

[Bob Eager]

by someone who is competent AND a member of CORGI. These days, AND might be replaced by OR, anyway...!

[auctions]

As far as I remember the regs say a flue should be 300mm horizontally from an opening and 600mm vertically, so the pic looks easily OK. Those measurements are what I remember from the combis we've had fitted, so I suppose it might conceivably vary according to the type of flue. The asbestos issue seems unlikely too. See if BG will put the details of the problem in writing to you - they may be more cautious about what claims they make if they have to commit it to paper.

A

[fred]

In article , Mathew Newton writes

I think the photo may have been taken from the wrong angle, it looks like there is a window on the gable and it may be that one that they are objecting to in some way.

The required distances are quoted in Ed Sirett's gas fitting FAQ:

states that the flue _terminal_ should be a min of 600mm from an opening window but what if the BG people are interpreting this as 600mm to any part of the flue, ie the pipe?

I don't think this should be the case but perhaps Ed will be along soon to give an authoritative answer.

[Mathew Newton]

To clarify, there is no window on the gable end (in case anyone's wondering, the thing you can just about make out is an alarm bell box).

issue is clarified in writing... The verbose oral communication and lack of clarity is looking increasingly suspect.

Keep 'em coming - they're incredibly useful particularly if it means she can sleep at night and might be safely able to avoid forking out however much gets quoted (I'll update the group as I'm expecting it to be a shocker),

Mathew

[Colin Wilson]

IIRC our WB boiler only required a ~300mm horizontal seperation from windows / vents (we have a vent almost immediately next door to the boiler) - so it may depend on whether its a fanned flue

[Guy King]

The message from "Bob Eager" contains these words:

If his mother in law is his tenant then that might be the case.

[Hugh Jampton]

I can't be of any help regarding gas safety. Just thought I'd mention that the Times "Money" Saturday supplement recently ran a series of articles about BG ripping people off - turning boilers off on "safety grounds" and quoting for new ones at extortionate prices. Several cases of people getting minor problems repaired by someone else *very* cheaply were quoted

- after they'd had their boilers turned off by BG and been quoted big money for replacements.

BG denied any wrong doing but the Times seemed to disagree. I tend to agree with the Times - BG seem to be turning into cowboys. I could be wrong of course.

Perhaps you should get advice from a (small) gas company other than BG ?

[Owain]

See The Times, 11 March 2006 - "Rules are rules but are they really"

Times website can't find this article, but it's what you need.

Owain

[frank]

It sounds like a sales tactic to me. I would never have BG near anyone I know as they once replaced a gas fire at a relatives house. The flu was blocked up and nearly killed them through carbon monoxide poisoning. They had the cheek to try and give them another bill for putting it right until their error was pointed out. If we had thought at the time we would have had them prosecuted.

[Peter Lynch]

...

...

Get the number for her support contract plus her name and address as printed on the bill. Phone Centrica/BG and ask them for the engineers notes regarding the service visit. This will tell you why he took this action. There is considerable scope for discretion (read: inconsistency) in engineers decisions, though I doubt if there are any sinister sales aspects to this. BG is just too big to care about 1 more or less installation - though they would care about another house exploding.

BTW, if you are 200 miles away, expect your call to be routed to a different call centre than you MiL's. You might have to persuade the agent to transfer you to her local call centre, but that's not too hard. If you get resistance, ask for the supervisor.

Pete

[Mathew Newton]

Guy, don't be giving anyone ideas okay? ;-)

[fred]

In article , Colin Wilson writes

Yes, I misread the 'below an opening window' requirement of 600mm but building regs also now require 600mm, here's a quote from the faq: "*Note that building regulations now require a minimum 600 mm separation to any gas flue terminal in any direction from any opening into the building." but this should not be retrospective, this is clearly an old installation, it also looks like a conventional flue.

[Piers Finlayson]

When I moved into my house there was a crappy old boiler. I asked for a quote to replace with a combi, and move to a different wall in the kitchen. Quoted £4k.

A friend of my mum's (who works for Transco ...) did it for free, with me apprenticing for him :-)

[Guy King]

The message from Hugh Jampton contains these words:

That should be in the past tense, surely?

[Chris Bacon]

It's openable. The solution is in your hands. Screw it shut and remove the handle. Now it's not openable. When they've bgrd off, then do what you will.

Good guess IMO.

Looks OK. Mr. Sirett will probably tell you soon...

I should have thought that if the flue is in good condition and suitable it shouldn't make any difference whether it's made of "asbestos" (which is what it looks like).

Very little, I can, as a householder, dump the stuff at the tidy tip for nothing. They don't *have* to dispose of it for you, do they?

I should call her again and say the same thing. It might be worth getting a second opinion from a locally-known "gas man".

[Steven Briggs]

In message , Peter Lynch writes

This is BG, of course its a sales tactic. Quiet time of year now. ISTR BG technicians (should not be called Engineers) are on bonus / commission for generating sales leads. Every incentive to condemn old installations.

[Andy]

Im sure BG is a regitered company with corgi, so perhaps contact them asking for a home visit to clarify the situation.

Andy

[Peter Parry]

It is more probably due to the service technician earning a fee for every new installation they have a part in selling.

You are absolutely correct in your assumption.

It is probably asbestos cement which has nothing whatsoever to do with British Gas and poses no practical risk. It is safest if simply left alone.

The only safety issue is the safety of the salesdroids commission.

British Gas do not have engineers going around in vans, they have semi-trained gas fitters.

That phone call is very important - it is what earns the fitter his share of the sales commission on a new system.

Whatever they quote can easily be undercut by any competent installer.

It doesn't need removing, if it does it does _not_ require removal by a licensed contractor - it is chrysotile cement and pretty harmless. Any builder can remove it and dispose of it safely (or you can do it yourself). The HSE advice is simply to leave it alone wherever possible.