OT: Blood Tests

Yes but you only about it all because it was all so unusual.

Or put another way, how many other things do you really know about this daughter of this widower neighbour of your mother ? And how many psople do you think heard about this ? Loads I'll guess. She only said anything at all because it was so unusual, and similarly other people have only passed it on, as you have on here, because it was so unusual. Not because it was particularly representative.

Sorry but that's occupational bias. If you have a chat with a dentist he'll tell you that people's teeth in this country are terrible, that there aren't enough dentists, and that dentists need to be paid more. If you have a chat with a scientist they'll tell you that science in this country is grossly underfunded, that there need to be more scientists and they need to be paid more. A policeman - the country is in imminent danger of collapse from hidden crime and teerorism we need more policemen they need tobe...

With social workers you can take your pick. The country is over-run with alcoholics and/or kiddie fiddlers so we need more social workers to deal with them all and they all need to be paid more.

Evidentially the idea of widespread hiding of empties which are never discovered doesn't really stand up. However if this could be linked to some kind of theory other than a simple guilt complex as to why people should do this; rather than simply throw them away on the sly. After all dumping an empty spirit bottle per day shouldn't be that difficult. Possibly they're anally retentive. But then those sorts of people can hang onto all sorts of things. Newspapers magazines, old clothes, empty milkbottles. Anything. Or if the person is old enough, possibly this is linked to a subconscious childhood memeory of money being given for empties although presumably not spirit bottles. And so subconsciously they're simply saving up a nest egg.

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams
Loading thread data ...

Not unusual at all. Merely yet another example.

Lots. She and her brother were childhood friends of myself and my brother. And I'm still in touch with her.

I dunno. I no longer lived there.

It's very clear by the posts on here that few know what is common alcoholic behaviour. So I'd certainly not expect a junior school teacher to be an expert in it.

Right. So by that, you reckon you know more about teeth than a decent dentist? Says it all, really.

A specialist in addiction isn't a general purpose social worker. Many aren't even employed by the council or even NHS.

As I said, have a talk to others who have experience of such things. No need to take my word for it. But a gut feeling on your part has no worth whatsoever.

If you really are interested, go to a local AA meeting. Most have an open day or whatever where all with an interest are welcome. And talk to people there. It's one way to be sure of talking to a true alcoholic, who has come to terms with his addiction, and is attempting to do something about it. Or any one of the numerous re-habs scattered around the country.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

So where is George Best these days? Playing in China?

Reply to
bert

He died over 10 years ago

Reply to
charles
< snippage throughout >

It's not unusual for people to have two locked sheds full of empty spirit bottles ?

Well the proportion of alcoholics with two sheds might be a good place to start.

.

But not being a dentist I've not got a vested interest in lying about it. And what's more a dentist is only familiar with the teeth of his own patients. Which presumably will be better than those who never go near a dentist.

But they've still got a vested interest in claiming more people are addicted to all sorts of things, than is really the case.

No matter how many they "treat", they're always going to claim there are loads more out there.

So to return to the point at issue. It's at AA meetings that many people who've been secretly hiding empties, even in sheds, finally admit to what they've done ?

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

Right. Of course I don't know Oz. Could be your entire street consists of alcoholics. And all of your friends. Now that wouldn't surprise me.

But in the UK, they don't tend to go around with a badge saying what they are. And there would be no point in asking an active one anything anyway - as they will probably lie. To themselves and others.

But at a re-hab, or AA meeting, you could talk to those in recovery. That way, you might actually learn something.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Total bollocks. There is an endless supply of addicts out there. Far more than are treatment centres for. Sadly.

And they'd be right.

You've got it in one. At most AA meetings, there is a 'chair' Different person each time. Usually from a different meeting. They tell their story, for something like half an hour. And the same sort of behaviour comes up time and time again.

Admitting to your own shortcomings etc to yourself and another is part of the 12 step programme. You'll easily find details of that.

When I first started doing voluntary work with addicts, I was quite sceptical about the 12 step business. But having seen it work with large numbers, now believe there is something to it. Nowhere near a high enough success rate - but even at perhaps 20%, better than nothing.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Why are you so desperate to prove that alcoholics don't hide their empties? It's common behaviour, and part of it is that people want to hide their problems from themselves too.

Coincidentally the BBC seem to be running a series of articles on alcoholism - here's today's :

formatting link

"She was in denial and she thought she was hiding it, but I knew when she was drunk. So I used to tear her room apart looking for bottles. I found 10, 20 bottles hidden under her bed, under her pillow, in her drawers."

Here's another one from a couple of days ago talking about how somebody died from it - looks like emulating Lemmy may not be the wisest life choice.

formatting link

Reply to
Clive George

With every post you confirm your remarkable lack of knowledge about alcoholism. It's not like it's difficult to find out about it. What the warning signs are, etc.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I'm not. What I'm interested in is, if they're so good at it and living on their own, how anyone else can ever know about it. Let alone prove it.

It's a very straightforward point, it seems to me.

But if people are hiding things, then by definition nobody else can know about them. It's a contradiction in terms.

Its an even bigger contradiction in terms to claim that this is "common". It could only be "common" if everybody knew about it, which would mean these people were totally unsuccessful in hiding things. But in that case who's to say they ever intended to "hide" them, in the first place.

formatting link

formatting link

Unfortunately one or two examples, which have been deliberately selected so as to illustrate some point of other on any number of television programmes don't actually constitute evidence of anything at all. Except whatever point the producer of these programmes was trying to put over; when combined with the research facilities at his, or her disposal.

Basically all television programmes are very selective by their very nature. They only have a very limited time in order to get over whatever point they're trying to make. And so any examples they choose to use, while accurate in themselves, may well be highly unrepresentative. Chosen solely for their human interest potential, so as to appeal to the viewers emotions; so as to get over their point as effectively as possible in the limited time available.

Which isn't to say that whatever point they're trying to make is necessarily wrong, assuming anyone could ever establish the actual truth; only that it isn't established by programmes of that kind.

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

An endless "supply" ? Supplying what and to whom exactly ?

Usually a person who supplies something, is fulfilling a need of some kind.

So which particular need is this "endless supply" of addicts satisfying, and among whom ?

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

It's one of the standard symptoms of alcoholism. ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Did explain this. It's something you'll here them admit to at re-hab or an AA meeting etc. And why would they lie about having done such a thing?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

There are vastly more active addicts than there are places for in re-hab, etc.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

First point.

As far as I understand you at least, you'd be the first to admit that there are far more alcoholics out there than ever attend AA meetings or re-rehab. So such people aren't necessarily typical of all alcoholics at all.

But your initial claim was that this behaviour is common among all alcoholics, not just those.

Second point.

This hiding of bottles is part a generally accepted behaviour pattern of alcoholism. Whether its accurate or not is another matter. It's what a lot of people, including presumably alcoholics themselves believe other alcoholics to do.

Other such behaviours might include beating up wives and children, soiling clothes and soaking matresses, and making unwanted advances to members of the oppsosite sex in public.

So that basically, as compared with that little lot, claiming to be hiding bottles seems a fairly trivial and eccentric thing to be doing, and to be confessing to; preferable anyway to admitting to beating the wife or the kids or regularly soaking matresses.

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

I'm sorry but that's not an answer to my question, is it ?

Just what is it that these addicts are supplying ?

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

An active alcoholic is unlikely to attend any form of treatment. The only treatment is total abstinece. An alcoholic can't learn how to drink sensibly. If he could, he's not an alcoholic.

It's well documented by those who've done research. I'm happier with that than the odd opinion on here which by nature will have been of a much smaller sample. And, of course, it agrees with what I've been told and or observed too.

You really have missed the point. Most alcoholics think they've invented this practice. And if they do have treatment, comes as a surprise to them that it's actually pretty common.

Not every alcoholic behaves in the same way. And nobody ever said they did. Just that there is some behaviour which is common to alcoholics, but rare in others. And it's certainly not the case that all alcoholics become violent.

I made no case for it being trivial or otherwise. Just pretty common behavoir for an alcoholic, which would be pretty rare in a moderate drinker. Of course a hoarder might keep all sorts of things including bottles, but probably wouldn't attempt to conceal them.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Are you being dense on purpose?

It was suggested a professional dealing with addicts would somehow hype up the numbers who might likely need treatment for selfish reasons.

There is a shortage of such trained people, and it's neither well paid or attracts high status or glamorous or whatever. So tends to attract only those with a vocation.

And you'll find there is a long waiting list for state funded re-hab. Of course if you have money, there are private clinics which you'll get into quickly. Sadly, many addicts don't seek treatment until they've lost everything.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

But what kind of research could possibly establish that alcoholics living on their own, and without any visitors are hoarding empty bottles ? Which if you remember, was your original claim.

I never said you did. What I'm saying is that to a person attending their first AA meeting when asked to tell their story, it might seem preferable to confess to something relatively trivial and bizarre such as hiding empties, even if untrue, than to confess to something which everyone would regard as far more serious, such as wife beating etc.

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

You said above that there is an "endless supply of addicts out there".

But you can't have a supply without a demand, or at least a potential demand, can you ?

As if there's no demand, then there's nothing to supply.

So where does the demand for all these addicts originate ?

michael adams

...

Reply to
michael adams

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.