OT; Arfa's Burger Joint...

[Derek G.]

Out of old Wellingtons?

Derek G

[Nightjar]

Do you? Can you point to anything that says it will produce a 100% disinfection? Can you show it is used in that manner on wood?

That is a logical conclusion from the fact that I said that food has more stringent requirements. A further logical conclusion from that and the fact that we could not use wood anywhere, is that it is not a suitable material for food use.

Colin Bignell

[D.M.Chapman]

Is Hershey's the one that has a wierd aftertaste of vomit?

Or is that just me?

Darren

[Nightjar]

My production manager came up with a proprietary food area cleaner / disinfectant that the microbiologist approved for daily use. The weekly clean alternately used a hypochlorite wash or a wipe down with alcohol. I never needed to know the composition or even the name of the proprietary cleaner. I only know the others because I sometimes took some for use at home.

Colin Bignell

[David Paste]

I never claimed or inferred that I did, but I am not giving an argument from authority, but rather asking you.

Yes.

The wood would be single-use only.

It may have different requirements, but I will remain sceptical of the relative stringent-ness of them until you can show me some evidence of this difference. As it stands, I would consider a kitchen a pretty bad place to do surgery, but a medical clean room would probably be A-OK for preparing food. Giving sweeping statements like "food has more stringent requirements" doesn't convince me of anything. Especially after seeing working kitchens in various salubrious student ghettos.

Well YOUR logic may well lead you to that conclusion, but (some, not all) wood is fine for food use, otherwise it would have been outlawed by the various money-collectors. Now you may not LIKE to use it, or see it used, but that is a different matter.

[Dave]

Thanks, I just wondered if 'Screen' was on the list.

Dave

[Nightjar]

You don't think that:

Right. Really? I mean, really? Bugs build up a resistance to peracetic acid?!

strongly implies that you do?

My authority is a professional microbiologist I no longer retain, so I can give tell you what that microbiologist said in the past, but cannot answer specific questions about areas that were never covered, which includes the effects of peracetic acid.

Then please do. I have never come across any disinfectant that makes that claim and would be very interested to see it supported.

Wooden plates are not single use.

Probably a better place than many operating theatres short of those with laminar flow HEPA filtration. However, I did specify a food preparation factory, rather than just a kitchen.

The only requirement is that the bug count is low enough for a weekend spent in close proximity to a fairly active radioactive isotope to have a high probability of not leaving enough alive to breed to a dangerous level within the shelf life of the product. With food preparation, you want it low enough that they won't breed in the food without the need to zap it with several megarads of ionizing radiation.

The fact that the standards exist does not mean all establishments meet them, else Environmental Health would be out of a job.

The Food Hygiene Directive (93/43/EEC) and subesquent legislation require that food preparation areas shall be easy to clean and, where necessary, to disinfect. That effectively does outlaw it for food preparation. I suspect that not covering the serving of food on wood is an oversight.

Colin Bignell

[Nightjar]

That doesn't ring a bell.

Colin Bignell

[David Paste]

No, it suggests that I am surprised that there maybe bugs which have built up a resistance to bleach and/or peracetic acid. But for the record, I am not aware of any that have. I even went to the trouble of asking my friend who works in a biological research facility which requires as-perfectly-sterilised-as-possible environments. She wasn't aware, either. Not to say that that is the be-all and end-all, we could be wrong, and we reserve the right to be wrong.

It's basically a blend of acetic acid & hydrogen peroxide. It is recommended for cleaning food prep areas in many places. Whether or not this includes England, I couldn't tell you.

Fire.

You asked for 100% disinfection, you didn't specify method. For a chemical disinfectant, bleach is pretty much as good as anything, according to my friend. Certainly for food use.

They are after being burnt.

Oh you'd be surprised by what gets passed by EH. Or rather, how little being passed by EH means. It is basically analogous to the MOT for cars in that respect, does nothing but show at one specified time, that place was fit for purpose. IF food really did have more stringent requirements, then they would be more active in checking & regulating. But as I have read, you were referring to industrial food prep areas - like microwave meal factories, I presume. I have no experience with these places.

But it might not be. The risks may just not exist.

[The Medway Handyman]

Most food industry sanitisers are based on quaternary ammonium compounds

-'quat' or QAC..

[Derek G.]

It's prolly the one that has filling of either blood / vomit or peanut butter, if so it's supposed to taste that way.

Derek G

[Derek G.]

Not all foods and not for all periods of time. To steam Chinese pancakes for 3 minutes in a bamboo steamer, or to serve a salad for 1 hour is a different prospect to storing uncooked chicken joints 28 hours.

Can't be worth the trouble of administering a seperate tax / penalty on olive wood salad servers.

Overall, fashion trumps wisdom.

Derek G

[Nightjar]

On 23/05/2011 22:46, David Paste wrote: ....

I did, but you chose to chop the post up, so it was no longer obvious that I was referring to your mention of paracetic acid.

There really is not much point in continuing a discussion with someone who is simply out to score points by twisting the wording of a post.

Colin Bignell

[Nightjar]

I also failed to discover what constitutes a CAB burger on the site. Is it a marbled steak, carefully ground, or is it the bits left on the bones after the steaks have been taken mechanically recovered?

Colin Bignell

[Derek G.]

Assuming spinal columns and eyeballs are forbidden (CJD risk), most likely lungs, mesentery, udders, and gall bladders etc.

Derek G

[David Paste]

But that was part of my point. You came in saying that wood was unsuitable for food use. It maybe unsuitable for certain aspects, but it isn't FLAT OUT wrong to use for ALL aspects. Twisting words, eh? I'd urge you to make sure you are clear in the point you are trying to make in future, to avoid such confusions.

[David Paste]

Indeed.

[Nightjar]

I actually said I choose not to eat somewhere that uses it for plates as I consider it microbiologically suspect. Given that the food they serve on it includes bloody steaks, I see no reason to review that decision.

I don't recall claiming that. I do recall stating that it fails to meet the requirements for use in food preparation areas and stating that I think it is wrong to use it for plates in this restaurant. I would have less concern if it were a vegan restaurant.

Indeed, you continue to do so.

The point was quite clear - I stopped eating in a particular restaurant because of concerns about the safety of the plates they were using.

Colin Bignell

[Arfa Daily]

How does the unsuitability stack up with butchers' blocks ? They have all manner of different raw meats and offal cut up and chopped on them, which I would have thought was a potential microbiological hazard, if they could not be properly cleaned. Surely, if EH have no problem with this, they would not be justified anyway, in having any problem with wooden serving platters, given that they were made from a 'suitable' wood ? Or are butchers' blocks some kind of 'special case' EH-wise ?

Arfa

[Clive George]

Isn't the problem if it's left? I'll assume the plates are at least nominally clean, so at worst there's a few bacteria hiding in a cut. Steak arrives, bacteria go "yum!". Fortunately punter goes "yum" too, so before the bacteria have had a chance to build up to a dangerous level, the food is in the stomach.

This is all guesswork BTW, and I'm trying to avoid your conversation about clean rooms...