OT - 4x4 automatic car.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I do better on fresh snow than packed ice on any tyres. I used to run Bridgestone M&S on the Defender, very good all year compromise and they lasted 52k miles.

[Mortimer]

OK. So you drive slower than you would do on a dry road, slowing down much more by lifting off the throttle, with much less use of the brake. That much is obvious.

But what do you need to learn in order to get a car up a hill where there is a 90 degree bend before it which requires you to set off virtually from rest on the hill, and on a bumpy rutted surface with grass or bare earth in some places, and with a brick wall at the end of the drive so you can't build up too much speed on the way up in case you can't stop?

I had this problem last year at a cottage in Yorkshire. The tarmacked roads were snowy and icy, but passable with care and forethought, but the last 100 yards up the sloping village green (rutted, unsurfaced) and into the drive (small final hill covered in grass which became bare earth in two tracks) defeated my car. Occasionally I got up the green as far as the drive, but more usually I started to spin as soon as I got off the tarmac.

I tried taking the corner as fast as I dared without sliding, so I was starting with a bit of momentum, and I tried inching forward very slowly, with the engine idling, in second gear to reduce the torque and letting the clutch up just far enough to start the wheels turning - I'd get as far as a rut and then the tyres would lose grip and start to dig in. Obviously I backed off the power as soon as I felt this, to avoid digging myself deeper and deeper in.

I tried driving up forwards and in reverse (to take advantage of the wheels being at the lowered end of the car when I was reversing), but the result was the same.

My Michelin Energy Saver tyres probably didn't do me any favours because they have very little cross tread. It wasn't a 2WD/4WD thing because neighbours in small Fiestas and Astras (as well as those in big 4WDs) seemed to have no problem.

[sweetheart]

I doubt they are much worse than the Scudo van we have.

[dennis]

[The Natural Philosopher]

True lower tyre life,

Not true higher maintenance costs in

Not true when relatively new.

so its a great time to buy a used landrover. Compared with what I lost on a Jaguar, the landrover was the best value ever in terms of resale value.

True.

Its more about deeper narrower tyres for better soft surface traction. Conversely they are crappier on a dry road. Locking all wheels on my defender did very little to impede its progress on a dry road.

No, they are jus drive by dickeads who thik they ca do anything in them.

freelander with road tyres manages almost anything up to 10% slope on snow and ice.

Its very hard to drive a RWD on that. I know, i've done it. It can be done, but there is a reason why all rally cars became 4WD after the quattro wiped the opposition. It basically works bets of all irrespective of the tyres.

However narrow M&S on a RWD will go a long way.

[The Natural Philosopher]

thats why in such situations I use manual override. Piece of piss on tce Freelander.

Conversely, its been years since I stalled it pulling away due to clumsy clutch action...AND even a stock auto box can be tricked into the right gear using left foot braking. Used to do that on the Jag. foot on both pedals mid corner to encourage a kickdown, and then be in the right gear to pull away smartly with no lag.

All cars is different. It's like learning to heel and toe a turbo car to keep the turbo on boost mid corner as well..

Keke Roserg, Club corner, williams turbo, sliding sideeways across the road in partial control only, blipping the throttle mid corner in neutral to keep the 1100bhp qually grenade on boost ready for the straight..I am not surprised he drank a far bit. I THINK that was the absolute fastest lap of Silverstone ever.

[ARWadsworth]

everyone is a more capable driver than everyone else.. even the ones that have had crashes.. and the ones that need speed trap alert systems because they can't see bright yellow cameras.. or the ones that need speed trap alert systems to tell them that the road is hazardous.. etc.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Not quite true. Most autos will upshift a bit early unless in 'sport mode' when they can and do hit the redline before upshifting.

Worst is mid corer acceleration. going from slowing down in neutral, progressive power then bumbles along in granny mode followed by a twitch as the thing kicks down post apex. Easily tamed by using the brake to fool the car into kickdown mid corner, or using the manual override.

It's no different to having to heel and toes a manual. Just a shade easier.

[Roger Chapman]

Hmm, turbos, another of my pet dislikes.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I hated autos till I got a jaguar. I then realised how far they had come, and the freelander is every bits as good. I can drive that fully manual just py pulling and pushing the lever except it WILL still drop gears on you if you slow down too much. But its perfect for twisty roads ad the gearchange mid corner is better than I could do manually.

Great thing about modern autos is you can have either. I go manual when I am either in a hurry, or suspicious about the surface conditions.

I can only speak about the jaguar and Freelander boxes though. Not driven many other autos. But both are superb. Oh I did drive an auto shopping trolley. Vile. Gutless and almost undriveable, and no decent way to override it.. Merc I drove also wasn't bad, but wasn't great either. Old 2.3 liter cabriolet. Underpowered really for the weight. Nothing wrong with the box.

[Ron Lowe]

Totally agree.

I'm in Aberdeen, in the NE of Scotland. I drive over the Cairn O' Mount road most days to work in Montrose. This can be severely challenging winter conditions.

I've had my auto discovery now for 4 years, and it's got proper winter tyres during the snow. It simply doesn't hesitate in even quite extreme conditions of deep drifting powder, or icy crusts, or icy bases under powder.

That road is officially closed at the moment, but thats more a 'reccomendation' than hard closed. There's no snow gates yet ( they are being installed :-( ) . I did it on Thursday with severe drifting on the summit section. I may attempt it tomorrow ( Mon ) with a video camera and post it on youtube. It may not be possible, but we'll see.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well all I ca say is that last year East anglia had about 6" of snow, and I had no trouble getting about in the freelander on stock tyres, even down to going up to narfuck and playing rally cars in the lanes..had a few 4 wheel drifts and a half spin, but always felt in control.

Have more trouble in mud really than snow. Spun the thing looking for the dogs down a farm track last week. Nothing to hit, but dint catch the little bastard for another 1/4 mile as his paws had better traction.

Go test drive an auto freelander. The older ones with BMW engines are better. 2000-2003 IIRC. leather sets, aircon, power fold mirrors..decent stereo. And not as thirsty or as huge as a Disco. We love ours.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I would say yes in mud or snow or ice.

If its not just a cosmetic 4x4.

I KNOW the toyotas, subarus and land rovers are not. The wheels with grip get the power.

Others are not really anything more than fashion statements.

Id say about 70% more all round grip on a 4x4 on the same tyres.

But the real killer is if one pair of wheels are spinning, you have another pair to get them out.

[Roger Chapman]

snip

The ability to select a gear is a relatively recent development and the modern auto box is really a cross between the true auto and the manual.

I was led to believe long since that left foot braking is supposedly standard for those who only drive autos. Not so sensible for those who swop back and forth.

And why stick it in low? Received wisdom used to be that in very slippery conditions you selected the highest gear that would work with the low speed necessary, not the lowest.

If most have made that clear it has passed me by and is inherently wrong. Spreading the power to 4 wheels rather than confining it to 2 gives better traction.

Have you ever driven either? I suppose that there must have been an Austin 8 but I can't recall any such model and, personally, I would think that the difference between 1930s motoring in a typical small car lacking just about everything we now take for granted (including synchromesh) and a modern sports car is far greater than that between the clunky autoboxes of the 50s and the present day.

And as for being experts - didn't you already know all men are experts on cars. It is in the genes. ;-)

[Andy Burns]

You start an off-topic thread (no actual complaint with that) but then get upset when people meander from your topic? At least you do seem to have learnt not to take any hints of negativity personally ...

[The Natural Philosopher]

Good points

The freelander box is fully selectable 2-5 in sport mode. Unless you ask it to overrev or stall it WILL select the gear you want. Only first cannot be gotten at that way, and IIRC you can select that for severe off road crawling as well. The disco is even better cos it has automatic central diff lock when it detects a spinning wheel.

And above all both are CIVILISED. the tacky tinny small 4x4s are noisy and uncomfortable. I knopw the subarus, and they are OK but lack ground clearance. Toyota land cruiser is halfway between a freelander and a disco. Its good.

Other 4x4s are either people carriers with a badge, or tinny monstrosities for boy racers on mud. Vitaras etc.

Round here we use a lot of 4x4s for horsebox pulling, farm work and the like.

Tey are ot the ones aabndoned at teh ede of the row in half an inch of snow.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Just another thing to learn, that's all.

The turbo on the freelander is completely undetectable.

comes in early and boost is modest.

on that nissan 200..it was an entirely different matter. Also on a ford

2 litred diesel mondeo. AWful.

[Mike P]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:51:01 +0000, Mortimer boggled us with:

I have this problem getting out of our cul-de-sac. I need to make a 90 degree right turn and go about 150yds uphill. There's no wall at the end, but a little car park which is just as bad. There is a cobbled speed bump about 10yds before the turn.

I got up there in a shonky BMW 5 series auto. Some people got stuck.

I took a different approach. I got my neighbour to stand on the corner to make sure it was clear, got up a decent head of speed, turned in and got plenty of opposite lock on. This enabled me to get round the corner pretty quickly and with some feathering of the throttle I easily managed to keep enough momentum to get all the way up the hill, but I was going slow enough to stop if needed, and slow enough to see that the T junction at the top was clear so I could carry on.

My neighbour jumped in, and we headed off up the road leading out of the estate, but on the uphill left hand bend there was some pillock, also in a BMW - a modern one - who was stuck in the middle of the road blocking it. I tried to go round him but the camber of the road made me slide sideways. A dab on the handbrake to stop the wheels spinning, aiming for the softer snow got me heading in the right direction, round him, and off on my way.

I've never got stuck in the snow whatever i've driven. Contrary to popular belief, keeping momentum up is one of the key things about driving in snow.

Admittedly, I also drove my mum's Jimny in the snow up north earlier this year. It was unstoppable.

so I was

[Nick Finnigan]

The latest Freelander is not medium sized. 28-33 mpg from a diesel is not economic.

She also wants 100 miles a day.

What's tacky about a Forester ?

[js.b1]

One other point, we are in a Solar Minimum as I recall. I think this might be the last winter of the solar minimum and then we warm up towards a solar maximum again.

So I would not buy a 4x4 just on the basis of this winter and last winter, I would go with snow tyres. For a clio which does not have large or expensive tyres, it should be possible to find something reasonably priced. Steel wheels might be available on Ebay or from the snow tyre seller.