Any tree that has been ring barked by deer here, dies. Utterly, completely and without exception.
So I haven't a clue what you are talking about. ALL water transport is via the bark. Remove it, the tree dies. Period.
Ergo: the bark may not have been deeply removed.
The only thing likely to die with ring barking alone is the grafted variety above the graft. Broad-leaved trees will usually sprout again from the base: otherwise, there would be no such thing as coppicing. Conifers, usually do die though, unless, as I noted, they have managed to layer themselves via drooping boughs.
S
Are you dennis? You're certainly as expert as him.
I know you don't
AJH
No I was meaning even when the bark was completely removed. I did get my nomenclature wrong though, there are two major transport systems in a tree, the phloem which is the innermost part of the bark and transports minerals and photosynthetic products (sugars) and the xylem, which is the outermost woody part next to the bark and carries water to the top. As a tree grows it basically increase diameter by cells in the cambium splitting into xylem which adds to the diameter of wood and phloem which is pushed outward and forms the new inner layer of bark. the phloem is what attracts animals, like rabbits and grey squirrel to strip the bark. The water transport system remains intact in the outer sapwood (xylem) so the tree above the stripped bark doesn't immediately dry out. It can continue living for a while on reserves stored in parts of the wood (parenchemous tissue). Eventually because nutrients cannot be carried down to the root the root dies.
In the case of the pine wood I'm fairly confident there were natural root grafts between adjacent trees that kept the root alive.
Yes, few conifers survive once the top parts are removed, welintonia is an interesting exception. There is an avenue in Arborfield where it seems some semi mature wellingtonia were transplanted. The though is the lower limbs were pegged to the ground to support the trees and the branches rooted forming a ring of new trees around the central stem.
AJH
But as the coppicing experience shows, the root simply puts out new shoots and gets its nutrients that way. The real problem with deer (why you see attempts at making basketwork cages round recently coppiced stools) - and why old woods have ditches and banks and hedges to keep them *out* - is that they eat the new shoots and prevent the stool from regenerating. An interesting side story to this is how trees were disappearing from US national parks, and eventually it was realised that they could only grow when there were wolves around to keep the deer on the move: sadly reintroductions have not proved popular, and I believe wolf hunting has now been repermitted in some places. We could do with some here though!
I'm sure I've got pictures of that kind of effect somewhere. Obviously a bit of a tricky thing to contemplate with conifers, but with our apple example, I did wonder if it might be possible to cut strips from above and use them to bridge gaps. Mind you, the way that disease and borers quickly get in to strimmer damaged street trees the prospects for the original stem would probably not be good even if the flows could be balanced.
All interesting observations though.
Cheers, S
Don't be insulting, none of the water transport is by the bark as anyone with a basic knowledge of trees knows.
Yes, I did mention earlier in the thread that as long as the root was sound and adventitious buds existed a stem could regrow. Even coppice stools don't last forever and as one showed signs of failing we would stamp a sun shoot down from an adjacent stool and layer it, to start a new stool. As an itinerant contractor and at the whims of a frequently changing ownership , unlike an estate worker, I never really saw the results of my efforts to maintain a suitable stool density.
I suspect that deer populations were far lower than the sheep and cattle that woodbanks and hedges were intended to keep out.
Along the lines of your story: in the 80s the FC had sent a chap (the recently late David Fourt) to east europe to see why the FC's attempts to regenerate old quarry workings were failing whereas the normal method for restocking in these countries was re seeding by natural regeneration. His report when he came back was that the population could not afford to buy meat.
Mind you your "basketwork cages" are the result of the inept attempts of green welly booted graduates employed by the woodland trust rather than any real attempt to conserve coppice woodland.
BTW despite the thread subject I lay no claims to expertise although I did just about earn a living for 30 years as a woodsman before I was pressganged by the dark side.
AJH
Actually, Andrew, the basketwork efforts I have seen in local woods, have I think, mainly served the function of helping handicapped children, get used to doing practical things out of doors, so maybe we should be a bit more encouraging, even if it does look a bit twee. And I'd say, despite your modesty, a little googling does show a rather wide range of expertise! That
Cheers, S
well you can cine and resuscitate the stumps if you want.
I've seen a very occasional growth below the ring., but never ever above as is claimed.
exactly. No bark, no water, tree above dies.
As a tree grows
absloute balls., The deer strip the WHOLE bark. heartwood only left.
Why do you think they are shot as vermin?
It can continue living for a
about a week befiore th leves shrivel.
The stump is perfectly capable of regenerating if it has sufficient reserves, but that takes a tree large enough that deer are not interested anyway.
total balls.
Broad-leaved trees will usually sprout again
Only once they have reached a certain size. They need energy in a good root system to do that.
Any young tree that is ringed, has not.
Many trees with lightweight roots systems will not. Ive never seenm birch regenerate for exmple.
Ive even killed leyalnndii by lopping to 6ft.
With one thing I can agree: I don't recall seeing large birch regenerate, but then I've usually been trying hard to stop it's spread where it wasn't wanted: I still expect that the acres once 'cleared' by a BTCV team I was once a part of, on a Lancashire bog one summer, probably grew right back worse than before (The usual result of 'scrub bashing' even when sulphamate is used, in my experience.). I've just never been back to look. I still maintain the only reliable way of killing a tree is to winch it out of the ground and burn it.
Deer do eat bark from even large beech trees, and some local woods are a sorry sight because of this, but there are generally crevices between the root buttresses that the deer can't get at, so even though the trees look bad at the base, they still carry on.
Deer are 'vermin' because they are mostly alien and have no predators: it is the growth of new trees that they prevent, which is why 'deer parks' are characteristically a mosaic of grass and ancient trees from before the park was set up.
Whilst not wishing to appear rude, it really is pointless arguing with you, as you do not seem to see what is going on around you, or to be aware of basic countryside history or management techniques. (I am no expert, but at least I have actually done some of this stuff.)
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