One for the electrical boys, please ...

[Huge]

Ah, OK. The very best of luck to you.

[The Wanderer]

No need to worry about it, the supply that is installed will have a nominal capacity of 75kva. You won't be in some way limited just to 40kva.

What you need to be aware about, if the busness expands, and you start installing more equipment, you have a ceiling of 75kva. Seems unlikely you'd reach that figure.

I'm guessing you are taking the place with an electricity supply, so the landlord has started the ball rolling, rather than telling you to contact the DisCo to make arrangements. He's probably done it before and has the (not unreasonable) figure of 40kva set in his mind as a reasonable demand for the type of unit. It's the sort of figure I would expect to see in a request for supply.

As to kva and kwh, yes for resistive loads the two will be more or less the same. As far as all tariffs are concerned units are charged per kwh, not per kvah, but.....

Where some industrial processes are concerned, the total demand on the supply may be greater than the load in kw. i.e. a load of 200kw resistive, but a demand of say 220kva. This is because motors and some other equipment don't represent a purely resistive load. Imagine a 5-12-13 right-angled triangle, the 12 side is the resistive load, the 5 side is reactive load at right angles to the resistive load, the 13 side is the actual maximum demand on the supply system.

As an aside measuring the demand used to be by using a very clever bit of electro-mechanical metering, a trivector. This had a meter measuring kwh another measuring rkvah, and the two were summated using an awe-inspiring gear train, with all sorts of differentials, epicyclics, the sort of thing to bring a real gleam to the eye of any experimenter here. :-)

[Arfa Daily]

Why thank you, kind sir ! Actually, should be a success. My wife and daughter have run food outlets for quite a long time, and been very successful at it. They sold both their cafes recently, in order to finance this latest project, that they've wanted to do for some time. It is actually very hard to get a decent take out burger from anywhere. Mostly, your only option is Burger King for a mass produced flame grilled burger, Mickey D's for a mass produced griddled burger, or the local chip shop for a poorly hand-made griddled or microwaved cheeseburger. There is a quality char-grilled burger take out in a town not far from me, and he celebrated 30 years a few months ago. His quality both of product and staff has never dropped in all that time, and I think that has got a lot to do with his ongoing success.

It has taken us a long time to find suitable premises. One of the big stumbling blocks is getting A5 planning. The landlord had just applied on this unit when we were first interested. A local councilor did object, but he was over-ruled by the rest of the committee on the grounds that it was better to have the unit doing something rather than standing empty, and that there was already a precedent set by other food establishments in the same retail area. There is very good footfall to a late night supermarket, and a massive pool of housing surrounding the area on three sides, and a large free car park serving the shops right outside. Also, a large pub across the road, and an industrial estate at the other end of the road that the complex sits on, as well as a main road connecting this town to the next one, just a hundred yards away, so we are hopeful that it will be really successful. I think many businesses like this fail due to wrong location, lack of business savvy, and wrong attitude to customer service. This is an 'eyes wide open' enterprise that the girls are embarking upon, and one that they are bringing a big chunk of business and food expertise to ....

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

OK. Many thanks. that explains it all very well. I think I agree that 40kVA should satisfy our needs, at least for now, and particularly if we do drop the fryers to 6 kW types. If the 'actual' capacity of the supply is 75 kVA, then I guess that would give us the option of being able to upgrade to make use of more or all of that, in the future. We don't have a date yet for when EON are proposing to do the work, but it should be in the next couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see exactly how they provide this new supply, and the level that they fuse it to. Is that what ultimately determines the 'size' of supply that they give you ? Or is the figure of 40 kVA just an arbitrary amount, and when they see a request for a supply that size, it just counts as "not more than a minimum-sized 75 kVA supply, so that's what we fit" ??

Arfa

[The Natural Philosopher]

Sounds a brilliant plan Only thing to object to apart from late night disturbances would be the smell of greasy frying !

And your daughter appears to have realised something that is blindingly obvious to all but the catering trade: food costs in this kind of enterprise are typically very low. Maybe 10% or less.

A shit burger (or whatever) will cost 2 quid (20p food cost), a really shit burger 1.95 (5p food cost), and you can do a really good one for £2.50,.(60p food cost) for the same overall gross profit per burger.

I mean, we can cook, using retail priced Waitrose special buns and burgers, and salads, a fantastically delicious burger for about £1.50 food cost each.If the cooking and overheads contribute the same margin - say £1.90 - then a completely gourmet burger is £4.40!

[Huge]

It certainly is. Speaking as someone who makes their own burgers, of which I am (justifiably) quite proud.

... floppy grey tasteless thing

(Actually, BK aren't too bad, IMO)

I can understand that. A good burger is a delight.

[The Wanderer]

Should be a nominal 100a fuses, although I have a feeling there is a tendency to use 80a fuses these days. To all intents and purposes you will have a 75kva supply.

The operating characteristics of the fuses fitted in the main cutouts are quite different to those used within the installation. They will tolerate a modest overload for sustained periods. They will blow (evntually) with a sustained overload, but it could be quite a while. They do blow very quickly if the overload is severe.

Their purpose ain't reazlly to protect you and your installation, although that does happen as an incidental benefit. They're there to protect the distribution network from faults on customers' premises.

[Owain]

Round here, the chippy burgers go in the fryer along with the pizza and marsbars

Owain

[Arfa Daily]

Yes, pretty much on the nose for costings. As to the generation of any smells, this is pretty tightly controlled by the local authority, who granted the planning subject to their approval of the extraction system. This is required to have appropriate filtration to remove cooking smells before they can escape into the environment. This is one of the biggest capital costs of the venture, amounting to over ten grand by the time you have added in VAT and installation. We have worked long and hard to even get it down to this figure. We are not envisaging disturbance to residents to be a problem, either. Although we will be surrounded by huge amounts of housing, the closest any actual dwellings are, is probably 100 yards. There is also an 11pm supermarket just a couple of doors down from us, that generates substantial footfall right up until when they close. We are expecting to close at the same time, so will not generate any real additional disturbance. In front of us is a large car park, followed by a road, followed by a large pub, and then open countryside for probably a quarter mile, before yet another huge housing estate, so that direction won't be a problem either. It's a good location, and it has taken us a long time to find it. Plus, many of our long-standing cafe customers have stayed in touch, and are waiting eagerly for our grand opening !

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

Yep ! Sounds about right. :-) Ours certainly won't be. We are using a commercial gas powered char grill for that 'proper' American burger taste. A couple of grand on its own ...

Arfa

[The Natural Philosopher]

well let us DIYers know and we will all come down and cop a burger there.

[The Natural Philosopher]

still not that real 'charcoal' flavour.

[Arfa Daily]

It depends on what type you have. The one in the place that's been going for

30 years, produces burgers that taste like they've just come off my barbecue, unlike BK's flame-grilled ones for instance which, although they taste ok compared to Mickey D's griddled ones for instance, don't taste like that. We also have a kebab joint in our village that sells proper hand-made skewered ones that are cooked to order on a proper gas char grill. They too taste like they have just come off a garden charcoal barbecue.

Arfa

[dennis]

There was a diving shop near me that used to compress air for divers. they successfully opposed a licence for a takeaway on the basis the cooking smells could be dangerous when its 1000 times the concentration.

I never knew how the takeaway was different from the school kitchen next door or the houses on the other side.

No diving shops near you I take it.

[Arfa Daily]

No, no diving shops ! Local authorities differ in their approach to this 'problem'. Ours is fairly strict, and it was a requirement of the A5 planning consent that they granted for our premises, that the fume extraction system that we install has appropriate odour filtration, and that the specs for it are submitted to them for approval. Proper fume extraction and odour control is not a cheap business. We have worked hard to get the price of ours down to the best that we possibly can. To that end, we have had four different suppliers / builders of this equipment, fighting each other for the business. We have finally chosen what we consider to be the best VFM system from the most reputable (looking) outfit, and it amounts to around ten grand's worth. At the end of the day, if you are going to do this sort of thing, then it has to be done properly. I think that if I had been the people applying next to the diving shop, and had been turned down on those grounds, I would have fought back on the basis that the planning committee did not understand what was available to remove cooking smells. Of course, it could have been that they were not prepared to spend the money to do the job properly ...

Arfa

>

[dennis]

I would have complained to the H&S that the diving shop didn't adequately filter the air they used myself. It should be easy for them to filter a few thousand litres of air at a low volume.

[Mike Tomlinson]

In article , Huge writes

My local pub does hand-made burgers. Bit pricey at a fiver, but you get chips, salad and onion rings too. The chilli and coriander burgers are to die for.

[Arfa Daily]

Is that chilli and coriander in the burger meat itself ? How hot chilli ? Typical cayenne ? I'll pass this on to the girls >>>

Arfa

[Huge]

Have you tried "inside out" cheeseburgers? Embed some cheese in the raw burger, then cook as normal.

[Arfa Daily]

Ah, so you watch Guy on Diners, Drive-ins and Dives as well ... :-) We have that episode stored away on the Sky + box. It will be one of the offerings in our new place !

Arfa