Oh dear, a new boiler now

[Bob Eager]

In a separate thread I was asking about a problem with our Pottern Netaheat 16-22.

It turned out to be a stuck relay on the PCB, but the fitter found a leak, too. This had been attributed to a coincidental roof leak, being fixed anyway, but it turned out to be the flow connection to the boiler. Further investigation showed it to be very badly corroded; in fact lots was corroded.

I was planning on changing the boiler next spring, so I've brought this forward. Not something I wish to attempt, so this time I shall be looking for someone to do this. I'm located in Herne Bay, East Kent, so if anyone has any recommendations for a 'not-DIY', then I'd be grateful.

I shall clearly be looking closely at what we're offered (yes, I know about BG but I'll get them to quote, just for the record, and a laugh). Any comments on boilers to avoid, or get, would be welcomed. I don't just want whatever is being 'pushed'. I take it that this would now be a condensing boiler.

Another issue is the somewhat tight space for installation. The Netaheat just fitted.

Any comments welcomed. I know it's not DIY, but I will at least be putting in the circuit for the new boiler, given this chance.

[Ed Sirett]

I take it you have or will be reading the BoilerChoice FAQ.

[Bob Eager]

I have now! Thanks...that will help when I get quotes. We don't have TRVs (but keep meaning to fit them so now is the time). We also only have one zone currently (5 bedroom house) but we use both floors nearly all of the time. I suspect we ought to have two zones, but I dom't know where this becomes compulsory under Part L.

[John]

We have an Alpha CD32C

and the 7-day Wireless EasyStat and it is superb. Very quiet, very efficient and comes with a

3-year warranty. Of course, I don't know if this particular boiler will fit your requirements but I can heartily recommend Alpha products in general as being well made, reliable and well supported.

John.

[Bob Eager]

Thanks, John.

The BG salesman came today. I had fun.

[Owain]

Do tell.

Or if you videoed it, YouTube?

Owain

[Bob Eager]

When he arrived, I told him BG was one of five companies who were being asked to quote. His face dropped. I emphasised that BG was 'just another company'. I pointed out I'd had problems with their workmanship in the past.

I wouldn't take him in the living room (actually, my son was ill so there was a point to that; he was wrapped in a duvet, coughing, wheezing and watching telly). He stood up to do everything, in the kitchen.

I said the BG guy had a maximum of 30 minutes. He said he'd have to measure, etc. I gave him the measurements. He wanted to check the main bonding. I let him; he seemed most surprised to see it was all done right (I did it myself). I noticed over his shoulder that another customer was being charged 120 quid to uprate the bonding.

He did his calculations and came up with an 18-20kW boiler. I said 'Good, that agrees with my calculations'. He began to look a bit harassed. He wanted to look at cylinder, pump, valves, etc. All new in last 12-18 months so no sale there. All he could sell me was a boiler and some TRVs, and of course a powerflush (which it DOES need).

He looked at the flue, and I pointed out that the adjacent window did not open, and that the boundary was > 2.5 metres away. I indicated the drain vertically below the flue and said 'that'll do nicely for the condensate drain, then'.

This went on in a similar vein. He recommended two possible boilers and I insisted on a complete quote for each. As a matter of interest, these were (includes 11 TRVs and the powerflush and 60 quid for the condensate drain pipe):

BG 330HE (Glow Worm I think) boiler, 1092 + VAT total cost 3275.00 inc VAT

OR

Ideal Icos boiler, 799.00 + VAT total cost 3020.00 inc VAT

He said that the other boilers on offer were 'too powerful' and that I'd have to have pipework done to change the 3 way valve for two separate valves if the boiler were any bigger. I know nothing of this, but would perhaps welcome views.

I guess this tells me the MOST it could possibly cost. Other estimates coming soon. Comments welcomed!

[Andy Hall]

Excellent. Placed on back foot from the outset.

That's a shame. It meant that you couldn't use the obtuse angled triangle trick - for this one you need the seating arranged such that you are at one of the acute angles of the triangle, your wife is at the other and he is at the apex. This means that he can't look at both of you simultaneously to gauge body language etc. An additional improvement to this one is to sit in front of a window and hope that it's a sunny day with sunlight streaming through the window.

Well done. The McDonalds technique. No seating or make it uncomfortable to keep the visits short.

Good technique. Try to learn how to read upside down. All good sales people can do this, not many customers have perfected it. Useful in this situation and in reception areas.

Very good. Another way would have been to initially played "layman", let him do the survey and see how much he could get into the deal. Then change the game by pulling out the details and the calculations. Now he has to reduce the offering

Plenty of fat in there.....

Hmm... that would depend on the valve type.

It's certainly a start.

[Bob Eager]

No, it was an excuse to leave her out of it altogether! Normally, that's exactly what we do.

[John]

We had them round last week and got quoted for the same Boiler. Cost started at £4,200. Got some discounts and it dropped to £3,600. We've had 3 other people round to quote, one has come up with £2,900, still waiting for one and the third one I think may have forgotten about us as it's taken 2 weeks since his visit and no quote has surfaced.

We've got a Baxi backboiler in the lounge and want to replace it and relocate the new boiler to the loft (hot water stuff already up there).

John

[Bob Eager]

He was obviously pushing that one. It has a SS heat exchanger; the other one is aluminium (and isn't modulating). I guess it's not quite a 'one size fits all' but I bet they fit a lot of them.

I'd like to know exactly what it's been rebadged from..anyone know?

Oh, ours had a 600 pound 'discount' and was originally £3,875.

Just booked another quote this morning. Coming later today.

[JohnDW]

Some time ago I got a quote for a heating job from 3 suppliers, one of which was BG. Needless to say, their's was the highest. We accepted one of the other quotes and eventually told BG they hadn't got the job, when they were following up. Later I got a call from the supplier we'd accepted asking us why we'd cancelled after accepting his quote. It turned out he was also the subcontractor to BG - which probably explained their higher quote - so I got him to give me a share of the discount he was giving to BG and got a good job with no problems... :-) - and no trying to sell me "extras".

[Roger]

The message from "Bob Eager" contains these words:

We seem to get a lot more queries relating to failing 3 way valves than we do with straight zone valves. Either this is because the 3 way valve is by far the majority choice or by far the more problematical. I must admit to bias. I have zone valves installed having decided at the onset (even when I only had one heating zone) that a 3 way valve was likely to be Trouble.

[Andy Hall]

I think you're right, Roger

I have had two houses in which 3 way valves were fitted and in each case, replacements were required for one reason or another.

In systems that I have installed myself or overhauled as in the recent case, I have always used zone valves and 28mm at that in order to reduce flow limitation. There have never been issues with these.

In the recent refurbishment I did, the boiler controls the zone valves and exercises them once a day if they don't open for operational reasons. This avoids sticking.

[Bob Eager]

I know they can be. Having inherited the paperwork for this system (all of it, including original installation manual) it looks as if the original 3 way valve lasted 18 years. Luck!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Mine did slightly longer and was still working when I changed it apart from an annoying buzz every now and again - I'd guess it didn't quite make the limit switch. But when the original pump failed I decided to change it too since they're close together.

[<me9]

My system originally had two three way (mid position) valves (to control 3 zones, 2 way valves were out of stock wheen the system ewas installed) these gave no end of trouble with failing micro switches. They have been replaced by 3 2 way valves, the wiring converted to standard s plan+ and have been much more reliable in service.

[Ed Sirett]

Other boilers (from the makes they use) might be too powerful. Although there are quite a few at 24kW which leave a little in hand for future developments?. As for changing from Y plan to S plan this is a complete red herring AFAIK.

[Ed Sirett]

Around 2k of labour! And to think I've just installed a complete brand new heating system in a community hall which used 120m of pipe and 9 rads and the boiler for less than 2k!

>

[Bob Eager]

Thanks, Ed. Very useful.

I have discovered that (superficially) the current gas feed is 15mm. I wonder if this is the real reason BG spec'd an 18kW boiler? In fact, the feed is easy to change to 22mm, so no great problem (but he never mentioned that).

Had two more people round today. One is our 'tame' plumber whom I trust; no price yet but he recommends a Worcester Bosch 24kW boiler. He's concerned that extra cabling will be needed between the boiler and wiring centre (a fair disrtance) for pump overrun control, as he didn't think the old boiler had it. However, I checked and it did, so unless there are variations I don't know about that will be OK.