Nuclear device for the kitchen, yes really

[bigcat]

It may not sound like a serious question, but it is.

Can one sterilise food using a beta emitter? I assume alpha would not have the necessary penetrating power. Where could one get such beta emitter, if anywhere?

Or might xrays be better?

The application is to extend food storage times in 3rd world countries, and reduce bacterial contamination.

If its workable to put an emitter in a box with a lead or conrete lid, with attached tongs to enable food to slde in and out without getting fingers in there, it might possibly be a way to sterilise food with no run cost and no energy use.

However... the probable showstoppers are: how much beta emission would be needed? where can it be got from, if anywhere? is the output level low enough to make it handleable in this way?

I think the answer is no to all of those, but worth asking :)

X rays are certainly more available, but a 25-50kV driver to power it is not ideal. Could this be an option? A TV could produce +&- 24kV for the job, not sure what sort of tube to go for though.

Thanks, NT

[Jim Thompson]

It's already being done here in the U.S., at least for military meals. Seal in plastic, then irradiate.

I don't know what type of radiation is being used.

Of course it's being resisted for use in public consumption by the loonie greenies, but it's certainly the correct answer for food preservation AND stopping food-borne illness.

I sometimes think there should be a bounty offered for loonie greenies, after all they ARE a terrorist group ;-)

...Jim Thompson

[Chip]

Not going to try answering any of the individual questions, due to severe lack of knowledge/confidence, but

to have lots of useful information on the subject :-)

[Andrew Gabriel]

I think the commercial sterilisers use gamma radiation.

Commercial food irradiation plants exist. They are large because the idea is to irradiate many piles of pallets all at once.

Whilst this is allowed in some countries, it is illegal in others. It is legal in the UK for a few classes of food, but not done because all the supermarkets told their suppliers that if they did any food irradiation (even for other customers or export), the supermarkets would not buy any of their products.

It doesn't work for all foods, e.g. soft fruits turn to mush, and vegetables with cell structures can become very vulnerable to bacterial infection afterwards, rampaging through them much faster than before the irradiation was done. Also, killing bacteria doesn't have any effect on the toxins they have produced in the food, and often it is these rather than the bacteria themselves which are harmful. Irradiation also kills all the natural bacteria in food, much of which is there in a symbiotic form to help protect against more harmful bacteria, so reinfestation by more harmful bacteria after irradiation can be a serious issue in non-sterile environments.

gamma rays are used. I don't know if xrays would work.

The ones used by the food industry emit enough that it ionises the air near the source giving a blue/purple glow. I don't know what the radioactive source used is, but it's kept under water to help cool it when not in use.

Not a chance for commercial units. I don't know to what extent the process can be scaled down, say to a domestic fridge-sized unit.

Another problem for anything which uses a permanent radioactive source is disposal, particularly in the third world.

Do a google search on food irradiation, or "cold pasteurisation" for the less publically scary term.

[Chip]

On 19 Jun 2005 17:26:52 GMT,it is alleged that [e-mail] (Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

I was unaware of this. That level of ignorance is scary. Supermarkets prefer their customers to die. /Nice/.

Mental note to self: look up which supermarkets were involved, do not shop there.

[John Larkin]

In the US, spices are commonly zapped to kill bugs, and some other foods, I think. They use either gammas from an radioisotope source, or electrons from an accelerator. Google 'food irradiation' or something.

Zapping chicken and certain seafoods would probably save a thousand lives for every cancer produced.

John

[dennis]

Customers don't want irradiated food. In the UK we don't need irradiated food. The stuff we get is fresh and it doesn't need to keep for weeks while losing all its vitamins.

[Rick]

A device to do this has been made, and was published a few years back, but the feeling was that the UK market was not ready for food treaded in such a way.

I belive a seach of New Scientest will find the article for you, but it was a while ago, so it may be a different magazine.

Rick

[Andrew Gabriel]

All.

The government announced it was going to allow food irradiation without requiring labelling IIRC. This was mostly seen as a way to make food which is past it's best saleable again (and it is used for this purpose in some places) and resulted in a large public outcry. All the supermarkets responded by stating they wouldn't stock any irradiated food (I don't recall which did it first, but they all followed), and the only way they can be sure of this was to tell their suppliers that they wouldn't use any suppliers which undertook any food irradiation.

A quick search on google would seem to imply there is only one single license which has ever been awarded in the UK for a food irradiation facility.

[John Larkin]

There are lots of commercial food irradiation systems, and some are in regular use. There are obvious public health benefits, especially in developing countries, and massive political problems.

I call it New Shrieker Magazine. What twaddle... a 'scientific' version of Mother Jones. If you deleted the anti-US propaganda and the stupid collages and the whitespace and the dinosaur stuff, there wouldn't be anything left but ads. It's rare to find an issue that doesn't mention George Bush half a dozen times.

When my renewal notice arrived, I wrote pretty much the above across it and sent it back. The damned thing just keeps coming!

John

[Jim Thompson]

Sounds like the AARP stuff. It just keeps coming and coming and coming. On the last batch that I sent back I said, "If it doesn't stop, I will file a USPS Form 1500 (unwanted sexually oriented advertising) against AARP".

And I will, too. That's how I permanently got off of Fingerhut's mailing list ;-)

...Jim Thompson

[Chip]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:30:46 -0700,it is alleged that Jim Thompson spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

I wonder if there's a UK equivalent? I somehow doubt it, the volume of snailmail spam we get here has become ludicrous, fully 1/3 of the recycle bin is junk mail *every* week. I gave up sending it back in their own prepaid envelopes because they're too stupid to get the hint.

[john jardine]

[..]

About 10 years ago, prior to their stock market flotation,

were being hailed by market brokers as the next license to print money. Isotron's food irradiation technology was going to be the enabling means for the big food providers to massively reduce wastage and increase their profits. Fortunately, just before flotation, the U.K. government took onboard the advice of it's scientists and made food irradiation illegal. Isotron had to quickly scramble into other areas. Hasn't though stopped a number of scumbag operators who irradiate food declared 'unfit for human consumption' and feed it back into our food chain. Irradiation is particularly effective when used on rotting seafoods, (eg Prawns). The usual process is to ship the stuff out to Holland (irradiation is legal) irradiate it and then bring it back into UK. Every couple of months a case come before the courts.

If irradiating is illegal, I still can't figure out (as an experiment) why a punnet of Tesco's or Morrisons' 'fresh Strwaberries' can spend 3 weeks outside in the garden and yet not rot. regards john

[Andy Dingley]

No. At least you _could_, but not so it's edible afterwards. You need gamma.

You're unlikely to get gamma sources that are usable in kitchens. For one thing, a suitable gamma source and castle has a minimum weight of a couple of tons - bit hard on the worktops!

There's also the issue of nutritional quality, and the legality of doing this in the UK.

[Tam/WB2TT]

Jim, I have heard references to gamma rays (makes sense) and electron beams (doesn't make sense). There is a food store about 10 miles from me that sells irradiated meat.

Tam

[Andrew Gabriel]

It's not illegal in the UK (see my other posting, although it only went to uk.d-i-y).

They were packed with a piece of bubble wrap, filled with slow release sulphur dioxide most likely.

I don't know about strawberries in particular, but irradiation actually doesn't work on some soft fruits -- a few days later they are a pile of mush. Cucumbers are an example.

[Malcolm Stewart]

30 years ago it used to be gamma radiation - harder than X-rays. My daughter, who had a serious blood disorder and had lost all her immunity to bacteria, was fed on it for a few months. It was mainly used for items like jam etc. which were normally served cold. Other food such as meat stews and potatoes were considered sufficiently sterile by being boiled, recently. Despite these precautions she still suffered from massive fungal infections in her mouth and throat.

[John Larkin]

Very first Google hit...

[Richard Henry]

Isn't it a felony to file a false report? To say nothing of the libel.

[Richard Henry]

Sometimes. It depends on the gamma source.