New wiki article, Making framed ledge and brace doors

[John Rumm]

This one grewsome from an answer to a question further up. So for the benefit of those who missed it:

free to make improvements / corrections etc as you fancy.

[The Medway Handyman]

Do you want to have a go at my 'mortice & tenon' free method? Much easier.

Can't do the drawings :-)

[John Rumm]

Can you give us a clue?

[The Medway Handyman]

>>>>>

Mortise & tenon is the best way, but not that easy.

I've made them as follows, using a mitre saw;

Assuming you want a door 6' high x 3' wide. Use 4 x 1 timber.

cut 2 x 72" & 2 x 36". Now cut 2 x 64" & 2 x 28".

Laminate a 72 & a 64 together to leave 4" at each end. Do that twice.

Laminate a 36 & a 28 together leaving 4" at each end. Do that twice.

You can now build the frame using half lap joints. The 4" will be the actual width of the 4 x 1 timber.

You can see that its easy to incorporate a central ledge using the same technique.

Use 1 x 1 timber glued & pinned to make the rebate to hold the T&G.

Braces can also be half lapped.

[dom]

I can see that working as a quick method. Better still if all the components were all glued up in one go, to ensure the rails were tight into the stiles.

[dom]

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Couple of typos - search for "nut" and "frill".

It might be nice to talk about carefully selecting the timbers for the stiles, and squaring them up if necessary, it helps to make the doors free of any twist.

Another variation is to make all the rails full width, then plank over the whole door. Makes for a thicker door, and is better for inward opening doors (as the top of the planks no longer have the same weather protection).

Finally, these days it's really very little trouble to screw the planks on, and hide them under timber plugs.

[John Rumm]

Thanks, page updated.

[dom]

"ticker"

[Cash]

Nice article John, although I must admit that when I was doing this for a living, I preferred making these doors in the traditional way with rebated stiles and top top rail - and on softwood doors, using gloss paint instead of glue on the tenons [1], and using fluted alloy pins driven through the tenons at right angles and punched in when assembling the things.

Also, don't forget that if the doors are paired (as in a garage) they can also be rebated on the slammin edges of both doors (opposite sides of the stiles) so that they will give some protection from driving rain finding its way between the two doors.

In this case, if you use a mortise lock to secure the doors, you will also have to specify a rebated receiver.

[1] Sticks like crap to a blanket, and is *supposed* to lessen the chance of the tenons rotting - I never did a scientific study on this, but the old time chippies swore by it.

Now frighten 'em by showing how to make a Gunstock style door (glass panel in the top section) - all very interesting stuff. :-)

Cash

[John Rumm]

Irish planks... ;-)

[John Rumm]

Just to clarify, you mean traditional approach in the sense of cutting the rebates first - or did I describe it in a way that gave the impression that the top rail was not rebated?

Interesting - not heard the gloss paint suggestion before...

Indeed... I must confess to planting a strip on the front of one instead usually - especially if you want a yale style lock on them.

20Mb of drawings for one day is enough ;-)

[The Medway Handyman]

Great article John, but I can't see many DIYers attempting it - the haunched tenons are not something I would attempt (and I rate myself an above average chippy type) & the mortices would be very difficult to cut accurately for a novice.

[Cash]

>>>>> Feel free to make improvements / corrections etc as you fancy. >

No John, it is clear from your drawing that the top rail is rebated - and for the average d.i.yers your method would be a lot easier for them.

In my case, the rebates were machined first on a planer, and then the joints were cut (but this method calls for a longer shoulder on the side of the tenon going into the rebate, and the mortise cut shorter by the depth of the rebate on the stile - and could certainly give the novice a sore head working this out).

John, when I first started doing this sort of work, the only motorised routers around were bolted to the floor of the workshop.

Cash

[John Rumm]

>>>>>>> Feel free to make improvements / corrections etc as you fancy. >>

Yup oddly enough I made a set of garage doors for a mate last year, and I cut the rebates first on the table saw, and then jumped though all the hoops dealing with unequal shoulders etc as you describe. I remember thinking at the time, "next time I do this, I am going to make all the joints with everything still square and route the sodding rebate when done!"

;-)

I have had the occasional argument with my friend (who although now retired, was trained as a joiner and builder by his dad in his teens, before working as such himself) for suggesting "new fangled ideas", and methods which differ from what his dad taught him. Quite often it comes down to having access to tools that just did not exist (or were impractical) before.

Then again I have to admire his speed and ability fixing problems when things don't fit, hang, or look right with a wedge driven into a joint there, a bit of packing added here, or a hinge bent over a bit there - and "oh look, it closes square now!"

(Watching him moulding a 6" lump of missing torus skirting from a bit of slightly oversize PSE using just a claw hammer, a jack saw, and a bit of sandpaper was quite impressive as well. Once it was painted you would never know unless you looked closely)

[John Rumm]

The haunches are optional - you could just make the top rail tenon narrower. However if you can cut a normal tenon, a hunched one is exactly the same, but you saw a corner out of it once you are done.

The lower rails again you would not lose that much strength in the stile if you did a full width tenon.

Failing that for this size of tenon I would either use my sliding mitre saw - make a bunch of trench cuts to the final depth across the side of the tenon every 3-5mm or so, then knock off the fingers of wood remaining and cleanup with a small plane, go for a jig on the router like:

(it does not have to be posh and adjustable - a "one off" jig made for the job from a plank with a stop screwed on, and the router fixed and plunged through it, will do if you need to chop out a few the same (and a set of doors would need 24 tenon cheeks cut away)).

The mortices are not too hard if you mark up both sides of say a 4x2, and drill carefully. Then its just a case of squaring up the hole, and the trick with the block to guide the chisel can help - especially if you work from both sides.

(although now I have acquired my mate's bench morticer, I can laugh in the face of mortices and forget all about reaching for a chisel!)

[Unbeliever]

If you can't cut a haunched mortise and tenon, then you certainly NOT an "above average chippie type" as that sort of work is standard practice in all types of joinery (and most TRUE hanymen and D I Y types can do them) - but what you expect from an ex-salesman (an expert in 'talking the job') and who has admitted to not even being able sharpen a wood chisel properly?

And as for "mortices would be very difficult to cut accurately for a novice" - that's exactly what you are, a bloody novice at joinery.

[Andy Dingley]

You can buy a morticing machine for less than the price of a door. If you need a new door, machine+ materials is still a reasonable investment. Mind you, I do hate cutting deep, narrow mortices myself, unless it's with a machine.

More people are capable of marking out and cutting a haunched tenon than there are who know what "haunching" is.

[John Rumm]

Feeling inferior again old chap?

[Cash]

John,

Just a little tip on this job.

Always cut the mortise before cutting the tenon (especially if hand-cutting) as you can then ajust the thickeness of the finished tenon to suit if you have accidently cut the mortise oversize in width (very easily done by the inexperienced) - so that you just get that 'interference' fit of a well fitting joint, rather than have the tenon rattling around like a ball bearing in a tin.

Cash

[John Rumm]

Yup good point, I will reorder that section.