New Fire door regs....

[leenowell]

Hi All,

I am extending the back of my house with a 2 storey extension and as a result of the design had a new roof fitted with a games room (with balcony), bathroom and store room. Building control have told me that I will need fire doors on all habitable rooms off the stairwell + landings/ halls - thankfully no self closers. Reading some of the discussions here, it would seem that maybe we could get away with out the fire doors.

Before discussing with our local BCO, I wanted to get your thoughts on my theory....

1. The only habitable room in the loft is the games room which has a balcony and could in theory be fitted with one of those fold up fire escape ladders. Therefore, the escape route would not be through the house.
2. the rest of the house would then use the escape routes as a normal

2 storey house - i.e. doesn't need fire doors

1. the 1st floor could either escape downstairs through the front/ back door or upstairs through the balcony or out of the juliette balcony in the master bedroom.
2. the ground floor could escape through front or back doors and in theory the windows but not sure what size opening you would need.

Would any of this hold water with the BCO? Have I missed something?

thanks in advance for your advice.

Lee.

[Martin Bonner]

I'm pretty sure that "one of those fold up fire escape ladders" is not acceptable as a principle fire escapre route.

How would someone in the 1st floor escape out of the juliette balcony? How would they get to the ground? Anything other than a staircase isn't going to be acceptable.

[leenowell]

I guess my theory was that as I understand it, I wouldn't need fire doors if I didn't have the loft area. Therefore, providing I can provide a fire escape for the loft area, the rest is as it would be if the loft didn't exist. How about another fold up fire escape thingy?

[Phil L]

Before you shell out pots of cash, you would be wise to ring the local fire officer and get his views on the subject. He will over ride anything the BCO passes if it's not up to scratch and his decision is final.

[Phil L]

I forgot to add, get the fire officer's decisions in writing, so that the BCO can be pacified should the need arise.

[Peter Parry]

"Fold up" or any form of rope or deployable ladder are not acceptable as permanent fire escapes. If you have ever tried to use one in the dark and in smoke you would appreciate why this is very sensible.

The fire doors are to provide a protected means of escape for all occupants. Making the roof habitable doesn't just pose an increased risk for the occupants of that space but also for those in the rest of the house as one effect of the larger vertical space is to create a larger chimney effect if a fire occurs. This makes fire growth quicker and the (more dangerous) spread of smoke occurs more rapidly.

[Bob Mannix]

-I guess my theory was that as I understand it, I wouldn't need fire

-doors if I didn't have the loft area. Therefore, providing I can

-provide a fire escape for the loft area, the rest is as it would be if

-the loft didn't exist. How about another fold up fire escape thingy?

Your theory is probably correct, so the loft is all you have to worry about but you would have to provide a fixed staircase outside to avoid the fire doors. That would satisfy the requirements. You will also need 30min fire protection between the loft conversion and the rest of the house and linked fire alarms (in any case).

You could have a fold down ladder for access to the loft itself of course, and try to render it non-habitable - OK from the start but retrospectively a bit unlikely to wash!

[Hugo Nebula]

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:26:27 GMT, a certain chimpanzee, "Phil L" randomly hit a keyboard and produced:

Three things:

1. In domestic premises where people are not employed, the Fire Officer has no legal powers to require upgrades. They have some jurisdiction in existing houses in multiple occupation over two storeys high. Their remit only covers existing buildings i.e., after any work has been carried out. They may give advice on single family dwellings, but it's just that; advice.

1. The Building Regulations cover any alterations to the fire safety of any building, including single-family dwellinghouses. The guidance on how to comply with the requirements for fire safety are contained in Approved Document B1 (Dwellinghouses) & AD B2 (Buildings other than dwellinghouses). If you want to depart from this guidance, anything proposed must be at least as safe as that guidance.

2. A Fire Officer, who has probably had to drag his fair share of dead bodies out of burning buildings, would probably tell the OP that his idea is an incredibly stupid and dangerous one, and would probably be only to willing to put that in writing to take to Building Control (who are fully aware of it already).

[Hugo Nebula]

On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:30:11 -0000, a certain chimpanzee, "Bob Mannix" randomly hit a keyboard and produced:

What is a habitable room is a bit of a grey area. At one end is a 'normal' loft, with a bit of boarding on the ceiling joists for storage. At the other end is a fully floorboarded, plaster-lined space with radiators, power and lighting, etc, for use as, say, a games room. The provision of a retractible stair to a 'habitable room' doesn't make it in to a room to which the Building Regulations don't apply; it makes it into a habitable room which doesn't comply with the Building Regulations.

[Hugo Nebula]

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 05:53:01 -0700 (PDT), a certain chimpanzee, [e-mail] randomly hit a keyboard and produced:

Hold water, no. Missed something, definately.

For what you're proposing you would need a *fixed* stair, either external or separated from the existing stair enclosure such that a fire in one part of the building would not affect the other stair.

I don't know what discussusions you're referring to here that would give you the impression that you could 'get away' without fire doors, but I hope that myself or other better informed individuals would have contributed to those threads and corrected them.

[D.M. Procida]

I don't think it's a stupid idea. It might be a bad and dangerous one, but that doesn't make it stupid. It would be stupid to entertain such an idea after having been apprised of the dangers, but those dangers aren't immediately obvious to everyone.

Daniele

[John Rumm]

So if I understand it correctly, the the games room etc is in effect a third storey?

If so, then the only fire doors you can "get away" with not having are one rooms that once could claim as non habitable - bathrooms and loos usually count as such.

The cost of a proper rigid fire escape would far exceed the (minimal) cost of a fire door, so why bother?

It does not work like that... regardless of how you escape from the third storey, its still a three storey dwelling. Hence fire doors onto the primary escape route are required.

No, and see above. Don't forget you will need interlinked smoke alarms on each storey as well.

[Pete Verdon]

My room in Halls at university (and many others like it) had a fold-out ladder outside the window as a fire escape. It looked somewhat like a drain pipe, but on pulling a handle at the top the outer side swung down and out about a foot with rungs linking it to the inner side. Was this (in 2001) a leftover from a time when it would have been an acceptable means of escape? In the event, it was only really used as a means of entry for some thieving scrote to nick my laptop.

Pete

[Peter Parry]

Yes - or a "better than nothing" way of adapting an existing building built to older and lesser building standards. The problem with them is that they are quite difficult to get onto, especially when there is smoke all around you and it is dark (many domestic fires, and the great majority of fatal ones, occur at night).

[Pete Verdon]

Yeah, no question. I never tried it, but I think it would have been quite an awkward manoeuvre to get out of the window and onto the ladder. The top-hinged window would be in the way even when fully opened, and the desk under the window wouldn't have helped matters.

Pete

[Big Les Wade]

Mine had a canvas sling attached to a rope on a big inertia reel attached to the window frame. You were supposed to sit in the sling and jump out of the window. Yeah right.

[Peter Parry]

In most circumstances, yes. With a decent fire/smoke stop door on a room then in most cases staying in the room and waiting for the Fire Service is the safest option.