New central heating system - Please please help !!!

Hi

Excuse my ignorance however I know nothing about plumbing or central heating systems but need help with some advice.

I live in a 1930's averaged sized 3 bedroom semi-detached house. The heating system needs replacing as its not efficient and old. The radiators we have are too small for the rooms and do not heat them very

well. We currently have a back-boiler that we want removed and have what I think is called a 'conventional heating system' (tank in the loft and storage tank in a cupboard.

A heating engineer came round to quote and advise on what we should do.

His recommendation was to stay well clear of condensing boilers (because they are not reliable and hard to fix??) and didn't suggest a combi boilder because our pipework wasn't suited.

He suggested keeping the current set-up but replacing the tank, boiler and putting new radiators up and heating controls. We are having a single-storey extension built and the tank would be piped into the new extension.

All this was priced at =A34000 which seems a lot to me, however I don't know for sure.

Are condensing boilers that bad and does the pipework make any difference if you want a combi boiler? Does that price seem excessive or is that about right?

Any help or advice would be appreciated.=20

thanks

Reply to
pleasenospam
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On 29 Jun 2006 08:16:32 -0700 someone who may be snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.co.uk wrote this:-

Have you installed cavity wall and loft insulation? If not do that before anything else. There are grants to do this for everyone.

How draughtproof are the windows and doors? If they are draughty sort them out. The are grants to do this for some.

With all this done the existing radiators might emit enough heat. However, if they are old this might be a good time to replace them with modern finned radiators as they might be on the way out, along with the pipework. There is no real way to properly advise on this via a newsgroup.

Less of a problem than when they were a new innovation. However, if you live in Prescottland there will be a lot of hoops to jump through to avoid having one installed.

Probably good advice. However, there is no real way to properly advise on this via a newsgroup.

By "the tank" do you mean the hot water cylinder, or the tanks in the loft?

Without knowing the layout of the house and piping it is difficult to say much on the cylinder. However, the pipe run from the boiler to the cylinder should be insulated. So should the hot pipes from the cylinder to the taps.

You might like to consider alternative ways of heating the cylinder. An immersion heater is worthwhile as a low cost backup. You might also like to consider a solar ready cylinder, which has an additional coil for solar water heating. You could then put in solar heating later. Such things are still long term financial investments, at current gas prices, but you may consider it worthwhile for other reasons.

If the tanks in the loft date from the 1930s they should certainly be replaced by modern ones to the latest standards.

Reply to
David Hansen

So what sort of boiler *is* he suggesting, then, if he's ruling out condensing and combis? The thing is, current regulations now mean that basically you *have* to fit a condensing boiler - see

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(or ) This is all down to reducing domestic energy consumption.

There are exceptions to this, if you have a complicated set of extenuating circumstances - see Appendix A of the following pdf file:

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(or )

David

Reply to
Lobster

He says I should stick with my current system, water-tank in the loft and boiler in the cupboard. He would replace everything with newer stuff. He did say he is meant to supply a condensing boiler but said he wouldn't as they are too unreliable and hard to repair. I guess there are ways around him fitting a condensing boiler?? Is =A34000 excessive for what he is suggesting?

thanks

Reply to
pleasenospam

Sounds like a plumber rather than a heating engineer. he is talking though his botty. Condensing boilers are similar to non-condensing boilers except a drain is added. If he is fitting non-condensing boilers irrespective he breaking the law.

Whatever that means. Time filling a bucket at the kitchen tap. Time it in litres per minute. Let us know.

A "high flow" combi is probably the best solution for you in house that size. They save a lot of space. There are a few good makes around.

Your "heating engineer" hasn't a clue. They have to be fitted and only in exceptional circumstances can they be omitted, like in flats. They save on fuel bills.

See above.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

It sounds like he doesn't understand the difference between condensing, combi, and unvented systems.

Perhaps the ones he fits (cheap ones) are.

Perhaps they are, if he hasn't been on any manufacturers' training courses and kept his skills updated.

Not legitimately, except in very limited circumstances. So if he's prepared to *lie* on the building control notifications, and knowingly do a job which doesn't ocmply with Building Regs, what other shortcuts is he going to take? Safety-related ones?

£4k for a new heating system sounds on the high side, especially as you won't be getting a good one.

Owain

Reply to
Owain

That may be a good plan - depnds on how keen you are on keeping the back boiler.

Pick a good one and it will be no more unreliable than any modern boiler. Repair of them is a bit of a non issue since the only real difference from a serviceing point of view it to check the condensate drain is not blocked.

It sounds like your plumber is talking out the back of his head.

Oh yes! very much so if we are talking like for like replacement.

Reply to
John Rumm

Good grief.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

)

I don't think *oil* boilers are ever condensing...

Anyway, if you have a gravity fed system, the pipes will be large and low pressure.

If space is limited a combi withe enough output to heat a shower without any form of stored hot water may or may not be possible.

I think that the ideal for the house, in absolute terms,. may require a complete re-plumb...and that will be more expensive.

The devil here is probably in the detail..if its were possible say to install a pressurized DHW tank, and the pipework would take the pressure, then mains pressure system boiler is a lovely way to go..no header tank, all water at full mains pressure..BUT the plumbing IS extensive for this.

Combis are OK for small houses with a single shower/bath..but I have had experience with just two adults and two kids of howls of despair from the shower when I tried to wash the dishes...

Adding a heatbank to a combi makes it just as expensive and nearly as complex as a mains pressure HW tank anyway..

..but leaving a header tank in the roof doesn't get you a high hot water flow rate either. Useless for showers unless pumped, but OK for baths.

I think £4000 for an extensive replumb is about par for the course really. Its more important to get a reliable job done that will last than skimp the odd couple of hundred.

Of course with pushfit plastic piping its a LOT easier to feed new pipework around a small house than it used to be..you may be able to save by doing the radiator and DHW plumbing yourself, and leaving just the boiler to he professional.

There is no simple answer to your question..you have to educate yourself to a level that will enable you to make the best decision.

Only one thing you will find here as a common theme :-

"Insulate, Insulate Insulate".

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

)
)

Not again. There are oil condensing boilers.

Not again. Two bathroom combi are available.

Why would anyone sane do that?

Wow! sense.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Jumping in a little late here. Our Ideal ISAR combi is at the budget end of the range. It doesn't need a boiler engineer to fix it. The manual is enough. It has a full idiot guide to servicing and fault tracing. I've had the installer in to service it since they're happy to provide a parts only warranty as long as they service it (up to 10 years). When the diverter valve went in the second year, I diagnosed it from the maual, rang the installer and they got the manufacturer in to do a warranty replacement of the valves. If it goes again I'll still only have to pay a fitting fee for a 20 minute job.

The change from a Mexico slimline with a tank and header to a condensing combi has almost paid for itself in 3 years. Our gas bills dropped by over 60%.

Obviously there have been insulation increases in the house too but the lack of heating a tank twice a day, running a decent room thermostat and putting thermostats on the radiators was the big change.

The cooking is done on gas too and that hasn't changed.

If anyone considers a modern gas condensing boiler too difficult to work on they need to be told to bugger off and get a clue.

Warwick

Reply to
Warwick

To be fair the ISAR is not really a budget boiler - it is more in the mid to high end price range.

People often complain that modern boilers are overly complicated and hence less reliable. The complexity of control system is required to get the lower fuel usage, but often has a big knock on benefit that the whingers often neglect to take account of! I.e. just what you have found: that the built in diagnostics can make fault finding very quick and easy.

(my ISAR HE35 had one small fault a few months ago: the HW temperature sensor began to fail. It was reported with a fault code on the seven segment display, which took you to the right frame in the manual. Quick test with a DMM proved the problem. Replacement was ordered and it was a ten min job to fix).

You will probably find that the boiler change represents about a third to half of your reduction in gas use - the improvement in controls and insulation doing the rest.

A modern system boiler with a well lagged cylinder would also be equally efficent in terms of fuel use reduction.

Yup. Alas there are plenty of them about...

Reply to
John Rumm

Low to mid. Look at a Viessmann.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Even the loony dribble wouldn't claim that.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I did mention further on that there was also insulation added. So no the=20 boiler replacement alone didn't make that reduction.

Quite a lot of insulation went into the roof and then the roof was lined=20 with that reflective bubblewrap stuff. The windows all got a sheet of=20 that stick on shrinkwrap stuff. I've re-hung the conservatory doors and=20 insulated all of the gaps. I've repaired some window frames and refitted=20 some panes where timber was rotted slightly and glass has dropped.

The mixer shower head was changed to a low flow one so we stopped having=20 showers that could fill a bath. We had the high flow pulse one on=20 because we were effectively trying to use up a takn of hot water every=20 day.

Part of the heating upgrade was to thermostatic valves all round and we=20 went from no room thermostat at all to a Drayton Digistat RF3i (With=20 some kind of fuzzy logic to it doesn't bother bringing the heating on=20 early if there's a mild night). Previously there was no room thermostat=20 at all.

The insulation and repairs were done over the course of about 18 months.

So the bills from this winter gone are 60% down on the ones from when we=20 first bought the place. The price of gas has gone up since 2002.

So to be accurate. Fixing draughts, not filling a how water tank every=20 day and lowering our hot water demand, insulating the loft, insulating=20 the windows a little, fitting a high efficiency boiler, a good room=20 thermostat, radiator thermostats and reglazing some windows lowered our=20 gas bill by 60%.=20

The loft insulation was cheap. The cost of windows and door repairs was=20 a few quid in terms of clearing out rot, replacing some timber,=20 resealing and protecting and then puttying in new glass. The shower head=20 cost about a fiver. The main cost on those jobs was my time and I don't=20 really count that when I'm working on that kind of thing. The boiler=20 replacement job with all of the thermostat stuff was =A31400. We haven't=20 saved that in bills yet as I check, but will have in about a year. If I=20 factor in gas price hikes then it probably has paid for itself.

Yes, I would have done all of the other stuff even if I hadn't replaced=20 the boiler and no, I have no way of telling how much saving is coming=20 from the fact that the heat is being applied into rooms where they need=20 it and then restricted or how much less I need because it isn't being=20 let out through leaky windows and doors.=20

So yes, my statement was a straw man that needed to be knocked to=20 pieces.

And the post today tells me that Scottish Power are knocking their=20 prices up by 20%. I guess I'll be looking at putting in some secondary=20 glazing before the winter gets here and trying to work out if there are=20 any other ways to keep some more heat in.

Warwick

Reply to
Warwick

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

I have no desire to take part in something that appears to be a personal diagreement between people posting to this newsgroup. I appear to have inadvertently blundered into an ongoing discussion where both protagonists have strongly held views. I have no desire to take sides in any such discussion. I have a reputation for remaining impartial in other places.

The heating solution I installed has worked for me so far. I endeavour to make my home as efficient as possible. That solution will not be the correct solution for many households. I can only demonstrate my own experience in given cases.

Your own advice to dig into the foundation level of my home and insulate that worries me though. Any insulating material will obviously have much more movement than the rather solidly packed pavers and earth. I would presume that the architects who designed the place and the builders expected that the foundations would be packed in with something not likely to slip and distort out.

I'll now avoid this part of the thread except where it relates to facts about my own install and will not be drawn into any further discussions between you two.

Warwick

Reply to
Warwick

Dribble dribbling as usual. His nurse hasn't checked his posts again.

Changing from a decent RS non condensing boiler with modern controls to a condensing type will reduce gas use by about 20%. Any savings with changing to a combi from a decent storage system depends upon usage.

It is important to realise which changes are cost effective - something that dribble has no conception of.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Insulation, insulation, insulation. You've found that out. It is the first thing to do no matter what heating system you have.

However, it's worthwhile knowing which parts of upgrading a house and heating system are the most cost effective, as few will be able to do everything at once. Also changing a shower to one which uses less hot water, etc, may not suit everyone. We all have priorities on how we wish to spend our money. It's rather the same as saying to turn the temperature down in the house - this will save money on any installation. As will turning it off. ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Richard, you know you don't know anything about heating. He put high pressure taps on a low pressure system and wondered why he only gets a dribble. He also didn't have his boiler serviced for 12 years and told everyone here to do the same. Only on the Internet!!!!

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

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