New boiler needed?

[PM]

Our CH boiler died and wouldn't relight, had a guy come round and clean it out and he says I need a new boiler. Being naturally distrustful I want to check a few things he said.

1) The heat-exchanger (or part of it) was swollen and not letting the venting work properly 2) You can still get conventional flue boilers at the moment but in a year or so you won't be able to get them. 3) There's no disadvantage with CF boilers over other types

I don't know for sure if I do need a new boiler, however the old one is at least 15 years old; also there was a hell of a lot of soot and black bits in it.

He has given me a ballpark figure of £2000-2200 for the work which includes:

50k boiler (BTU presumably) Re-line flue Timer unit + three-way valve Room stat and hot water tank stat Re-routing existing pipes (nothing major)

Sounds a lot to me, he reckons 1 day's work for two men, does it sound reasonable to you? I don't think he is trying to rip me off but for 2 grand I thought I'd ask!

Ta

P

[Jayne]

I had a new Glow worm boiler fitted two years ago to my previous house, not sure what size (BTU) but to accomodate a 3 bed det house (8 rads). Also I had a new tank fitted, valve, and ball c*ck. It cost me £1450.00. It took 2 men over 2 1/2 days to do. I'm not sure if that helps at all.

I have priced up a new boiler for my present house as I think this one is on its way out. A four bed det house with 11 rads. A local corgi registered bloke has quoted me £1500 fitted. British gas has quoted £2800.

If you have the time I would definately get more than one quote as they do vary a lot. We didn't in our previous house as it was November, we had just moved in and I had a 6 week baby. Wanted it doing ASAP.

Jayne

[IMM]

Sounds like a new boioier.

Not quite sure about that.

They are less efficient.

If yiou go for anew boioer get a condesning boioer and have it wall mounted if possible. Where is the boiler located? Inside room? Near an outside wall? etc?

ouch!

A high flow combi can be bought for around £1000 retail. Then there is no

3-way valve, lining the flue, cylinder stat, etc. Just re-routing some pipes and cutting off the tank and cylinder.

[Christian McArdle]

Basically true. CF boilers are inefficient and most (all?) will not be able to meet the new efficiency requirements.

Completely false. CF boilers are (a) considerably more inefficient and (b) considerably more dangerous.

Christian.

[MikeS]

Snip -----------Snip

Why not price up a boiler, hot water tank at B&Q or firms on the Internet. Cost up radiators and roughly measure from boiler to rads and double it plus

10 waste imagine where joints will go and cost them up. Pay yourself £200 perday x 2 and see what that comes to.

Bear in mind the fitter will have to collect and source all the materials. Bear in mind that sometimes boiler manufacturers have offers of free holiday abroad or heavy discounts if they fit a certain amount of boilers. Be careful taking advice on a boiler it could old stock the retailer/manufacturer is off loading. Put yourself in their position most punters haven't a clue and will except anything, if your convincing enough. Don't let them install radiators on inside walls ( bad practice) but easier for them and needs less pipework and you will suffer in discomfort, rads should be on outside wall or as near as you can get.

MikeS (Jobe) be careful out there its a jungle !

[IMM]

The Archie Kidd make conventional flued condensing boilers built to RR standards. Super simple. They were the first condensers in the UK and are still made the same way. Altghough I would not want one in may house. Fine for a garage.

[Tony Bryer]

IIRc CF boilers are not allowed in garages - for obvious reasons

[IMM]

They make a sealed version too. No electronics, 90% efficient and been going since 1980/81. The Archie Kidd is big and an odd shape that looks like a gas cooker. I have only ever come across one of them. They are not cheap and still made. I remember their adds that said they had a 30 years design life at least, so in the long term were very cheap to run. Since then boilers in real terms have dropped in price, thanks to combi's, so replacing a boiler every 15 years may not be so uneconomical. At 90% at least the Archie Kidds are cheap to run, and those who bought them 24 years ago have had their money's worth, and I'm sure they are still going.

[Andy Hall]

That's a new one. Did he not suggest rubbing cream on it ? :-)

That's completely untrue. They are considerably less efficient than modern types and careful provision over venting has to be made to avoid carbon monoxide generation. This is do-able, but an unnecessary extra factor that is readily avoidable.

It sounds like it may be time. If there is sooting and black bits it's bad news regarding the way the combustion is working, or rather not.

If he is still installing conventional flue boilers, bemoaning their demise and working in BTUs he is way behind the times.

This is pretty expensive. A good quality condensing wall mounted boiler can be had for around £800 and some can have small diameter plastic pipe as the flue which can be routed around over some distance and go out through the wall remote from the boiler if you need to do that. This would obviate the need for flue work and save you around 25-30% on your gas bill.

If the work is of the ilk that you describe, it should be achievable for around £1500 or a touch more.

I would get some other quotes. You could ask him about installing a condensing boiler, but my guess would be that he will say that they are unreliable etc. This was true of first generation UK designed and made products but wasn't of German and Dutch ones in which countries thedse have been used for 20 years. Recent models, even from UK manufacturers have improved a lot.

From next April, condensing boilers will be mandatory apart from in exceptional cases.

[Ed Sirett]

That's a good enough reason to give it its last rites.

This is indirectly true, most if not all condensing boilers have forced premix burners and thus are forced draught and not convention driven. Effectively condensing bnoilers will be the only ones to be fitted after April next year.

Disagree. They are less inherently safe. They are less efficient.

The price and work list are in the ball park. The one day seems too fast - what will get skimped? TRVs haven't been included in the list. How are they going to reline the flue?

1) Flushing 2) Flushing 2nd time. 3) Filling out log book. (for guarantee). 4) TRV's where needed?

The comes the whole discussion about whether it's a good idea to replace a

15+ year boiler with something that is essentially 20 years out of date in its design?

Also some of these replacement boilers are expensive (and heavy) relative to what is on offer from modern designs.

[IMM]

Not all.

If the only way to fit the boiler is via the existing flue route through the roof or chimney, a forced flue boiler exhaust can be fitted in the same place using plastic pipe.

[raden]

In message , PM writes

I don't quite see what he's on about here, the word "bullshit springs to mind. A heat exchanger is basically water pipes with fins on. Now, you could get corrosion (knackered) or the fins could get filled with crud (a stiff wire brush would be useful here)

Ask him exactly what is swollen, and if you can get a liniment for it

From April next year, efficiency regulations effectively mean that you will have to buy a condensing boiler, not cheap

[IMM]

Maxie, I'm sure the heat exchanger is cast iron. The buckling is probably the burner box not the exchanger. Nevertheless a new boiler is probably the best option as it is so inefficient anyhow.

They are available for around £500.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I was picturing a cast iron jobbie caked in soot which he couldn't be bothered to clean (still the word "bullshit sprung to mind).

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Yes. 15 years is no great age for a decent cast iron type. Wonder if a good clean would in fact get it going again.

[PM]

He did mention it was a cast iron heat exchanger, I wondered at the time how cast iron could swell but I presumed there were other parts made of different material. The whole lot was caked in soot, he did indeed get it going again by cleaning it.

He pointed out that the flames from the burner were spreading out sideways which indicated incorrect airflow, seems reasonable to me.

I have since found out that the boiler is at least 19 years old so replacement is probably the best option anyway.

He has said that a condensing boiler cannot be put in the existing boiler cupboard (shared wall with next door, flue goes up and through the roof), it can be put in the kitchen but the flue essentially has to be the same level (or not much higher) than the boiler and the output might be unpleasant as it would be next to the kitchen window.

Comments anyone?

[PM]

This is because they burn oxygen from the room rather than drawing it from outside, right?

Didn't mention flushing, I know from removing a rad last year that there's plenty of gunk in the system. Didn't mention a log book but maybe that's standard. Is a log book a legal requirement for a new boiler? Only two of seven rads don't have TRV's, not too bothered about this as I can replace these myself.

My thoughts exactly.

[IMM]

This is a bit rich coming from incompetent. Here is this Plowman giving advise on CH..read on...

He also attempts to give advise and criticise views on heating, yet he said about his gas boier.......

"Mine managed over 10 years without being touched before it needed a clean. 'Sooting up' once it starts, happens very quickly."

He didn't have his gas boiler serviced for over 10 years, and knows all the answers in this field - he thinks. Only on the Internet you see this.

These people are dangerous man, very dangerous.

This what he wears, yes he does...he said... "Well, I got a rather flash pair of DeWalt boots from TLC, so there.;-)"

Sad isn't it. Big yellow boots. Yes. big yellow boots.

[IMM]

Yes, but there should be an air vent in the room. They also draw in fluff and dirt from the house blocking up the burner injectors and filters which creates soot. Back boilers are famous for this drawing in air, and the dust from the carpets, from the living room. I went to one once which was caked in soot and the burner was crammed with cat hairs. So don't ever get a back boiler. A room sealed boiler with the air intake away from any dust.dirt,. ect can go quite a time before any soot would ever build up.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And worked fine when cleaned. And still works fine some 15 years later.

Then BG etc are very dangerous too, given they no longer service boilers by stripping them and cleaning them every year. I was simply ahead of the trend by using my brains.

I can well imagine you thinking it important to dress in the latest fashion for anything. After all, IMM who goes tango dancing.

Were you dressed in the latest plumber's fashion wear when you flooded that house after joining plastic pipe with a hacksaw?