Multi-zone heating system controls/BMS systems

[John Stumbles]

I'm looking for a system to control a central heating and hot water system that's divided into several zones, which can be set easily to cater for 5+2 day usage patterns + holidays + exceptions to the programmes (e.g. one zone to stay on for a few hours) and where the holidays & exceptions can be programmed in advance.

The application is for a school: the normal 5+2 pattern will be schooldays (e.g. heating from 09:00-15:30), it should be possible to program holidays when the times of these are known, and to program extensions (such as heating on in zone xyz between 20:00 - 22:00 on dd/mm/yyyy for meeting etc) as these dates & times become known. Optimum start for the heating would be an advantage especially as part of the building has UFH.

Another of the school's buildings (with a heating system independent of the main school building's) is shared between school and residential use (in different parts of the building) and there we need one programme running for the residential part and another, similar to the main school building's setup, for the other. At the moment this building isn't zoned at all, but it could be, but we really need a control system that doesn't necessitate having a dedicated programmer-wallah going round setting bog-standard programmers all over the place.

Does anyone know of any ready-rolled systems which might meet our needs? Ideally we want some known quantity that any heating engineer can deal with if problems arise. I can't find anything in the Honeywell catalogue (at least not the CD - can't lay my hands on the treeware version) but maybe there are other manufacturers who cover this market (at a price, no doubt).

Next best would be some conventional timers/programmers (or programmable thermostats) which could be programmed remotely through some open (or at least hackable) interface, so that we could have a PC driving them from a cron job but if that broke down the system would default to being human-drivable mode.

To add sauce to the mixture the building with mixed uses is ramshackle and listed, so we'd probably want wireless control of its system, and this building houses the office which is where we'd want the main control system to run from for the school block itself, which is about

200m distant (without anything much better than phone wire linking it).

Oh, and the school is a poor as church mice so it's all got to be really cheap :-)

So far I've found a list of companies involved BMS systems at

and had a look at a couple of the companies listed there, but I don't know who's who in this business and would appreciate any pointers to good outfits to look at from the POV of our requirements.

tia

[Andy Hall]

I looked at this kind of thing about a year ago and came up with a few solutions.

It's going to be difficult to meet all the criteria in one product, though. Is this being done as a normal arm's length commercial job, John, or are you willing to invest some time into it on the basis of the status of the customer?

- SmartKontrols/Seachange.

I believe that the Smartkontrols stuff is from the Seachange range, scaled down to a complex domestic environment. There's a whole bunch of interfaces and I'm pretty sure it would cover the requirement here.

- I found a small UK firm with a boiler energy management and zone control product that had been used by a few local authorities. I can't find the link any more unfortunately and am not sure how many zones. It was more like a domestic controller on steroids though.

- You could talk to Comfort Home Controls.

Their system has an interface to the Honeywell Smartfit system, but AIUI, only to one. Their system is reasonably priced and could drive a load of stuff through relay outputs. There are dealers as well and a good support mail group. I've got one of these, as has Andrew Gabriel, although mine is not involved in the heating. Watch out for the module prices though, they mount up.

- If you're prepared to invest some time in it or can get somebody reasonably sentient to do so, there are some good PLC packages around. For example, I've been looking at a Crouzet Millenium 2 for a project. You can get a starter kit version from RS (e.g. 413-4056) which has 12 inputs and 8 relay outputs (expansion modules available), an LCD display and keypad, programming software for a PC including an application library; all for £165. You can program and use EPROM modules. I think that that's about as cheap as it will get and again cover the lot, but there is a question over whether "any heating engineer" could cope with it.

Equally though, I wonder whether "any heating engineer" could necessarily cope with anything beyond basic heating controls. Any of the building energy management systems probably imply a contract with the supplier. Then you have to ask whether you want to remain in the loop.

[Aidan]

The specification for this system is beyond the capabilities of domestic controllers. You could get it to run with a collection of domestic controlers, but you'd have to abandon any hope of central control.

IMHO, I think you'd be best advised to go with the commercial BMS option. The additional capital expense could probably be recovered in the reduced running costs. All my experience has been with Trend

This proved to be a very reliable and adaptable system. I think it was the best option, but I've no experience of systems suppied by other manufacturers, so probably can't make a comparison.

I've been on the lookout for a control system with abilities and adaptability of BMS. There isn't one as yet, SFAIK. Callefi were rolling out a system in the US which looked interesting, but it's not yet available in the EU.

[Doctor Evil]

This is a commercial system so go with the big commercial boys Honeywell, Landis & Gyr (Landis & Staefa/Seimens), Johnson Controls etc. Their controls intermesh with the BES system, rather than have control system and one to monitor and switch, which is havin essentially two.

Using domestic controllers is possible, but you will have basicall separate systems with all user interfaces all in one location. Sometimes this works just as well, and if analogue visual controls, yo can see what the settiing are all at a glance, rather than flippin through a computer screen. It is usually easier to maintain an trouble shoot too. Look at The Honeywell CM67 web site. I recall the had a number off them linked up for a commercial setup

BES systems are only viable in a large system. With small commercial it is somtimes difficult to financially justify

-- Doctor Evil

[John]

Heres a few companies from a first search

AMS Ltd - Kidderminster Andover Controls Europe Ltd - Ashby de la Zouch Ashdown Control Services Ltd - Crowborough Camrascan Ltd - Peterborough Combined Services GB Ltd - High Wycombe Daikin Airconditioning UK - Woking Dalkia plc - Staines DSA Facilities Management - Farnborough ENV Surveys Ltd - Brighton Fairburn Engineering Ltd - Hull FHP Engineering Services Solutions - Manchester Future Electrical Services Ltd - Stansted Hayes Control Systems - Henley on Thames Industrial Drives and Controls Ltd - Stockport Palcon Systems Ltd - High Wycombe Realtime Control Systems - Watford SES Controls Ltd - Petersfield Severn Controls Ltd - Stonehouse Smart Kontrols - Uckfield Swift Automation and Control Systems Ltd - Carlisle Systems Controls and Instruments (UK) Ltd - Chertsey